Sox Prospects on clock

[RockRaines]

Sox prospects on the clock

Fall league players may help—or hurt —chances for '08

 

By Mark Gonzales

Tribune staff reporter

 

October 14, 2007, 10:38 PM CDT

 

MESA, Ariz. -- It was only the second game of the Arizona Fall League season, but the White Sox treated one game last week as if the future of the franchise were on the line.

 

Eleven front-office staff members and scouts attended the Phoenix Desert Dogs' game to watch the likes of Jack Egbert, Donny Lucy and Ryan Sweeney, all of whom have a chance to make the Sox's 2008 Opening Day roster.

 

 

For the Sox, this off-season has taken on a greater urgency after they lost 90 games and saw several prospects fail initially at the major-league level or stagnate in the minors. They realized they lack a bona fide five-tool prospect.

 

The Sox's talent evaluators had plenty to assess over the weekend when they conducted their annual organizational meetings in Phoenix. The Sox recently completed a two-day session for their new amateur scouts, who will be put to the test immediately. Because of their poor 2007 showing, the Sox will have the eighth overall selection in June's amateur draft.

 

It's also close to make-or-break time for prospects like shortstop Robert Valido, who has been relegated to playing in the Instructional League, and Sweeney, who is playing in the AFL after wrist problems curtailed his 2007 season at Triple-A Charlotte.

 

Sweeney batted .200 in 45 at-bats when he was called up for a brief look in May, then hit .270 with 10 homers and 47 RBIs in 105 games at Charlotte. He's still only 22, but the Sox seem to have reservations about his long-term potential.

 

"I have to show them I can still swing the bat," Sweeney said. "I had a decent year in Charlotte but definitely not as good as I wanted. I just want to show them I can still play."

 

Sweeney admitted he was "a little bit" surprised he didn't receive a September promotion to the majors.

 

"But they said something about seeing if [Josh] Fields can play the outfield, and they didn't want me to sit on the bench," he said.

 

While some players need to wow the front office, the Sox might have a surprise or two in store.

 

One is 16-year-old shortstop Juan Silverio, who is playing in the Instructional League after receiving a $600,000 bonus.

 

Two scouts said in separate conversations he has a chance to be "special" after watching him recently.

 

Silverio and left-hander Justin Edwards, 19, who throws a sharp-breaking curve, could help the Sox in the next decade.

 

But the Sox have vowed to contend next season, with help from their farm system. Evaluating Fields, Jerry Owens and Danny Richar during the second half of 2007 was only part of the reconstruction process.

 

Valido, 22, batted .177 at Double-A Birmingham and .252 at Class A Winston-Salem. Dispatching him to the Instructional League was part of an effort to help him regain the skills that once had him pegged as the Sox's shortstop of the future after he batted .288 at Winston-Salem two years ago.

 

Meanwhile, Dewon Day, Adam Russell and Egbert will get close looks while playing for Phoenix in the AFL.

 

Day needs to throw his breaking pitch for strikes more consistently to have a chance to regain a bullpen spot he lost because of a lower back injury and ineffectiveness.

 

Russell will make the transformation from starter to reliever but must regain the 96-m.p.h. fastball that wowed scouts last spring.

 

Egbert, 24, pitched himself onto the 40-man roster by winning 12 games with a 3.06 ERA and 165 strikeouts in 161 2/3 innings for Birmingham, and an impressive showing like last week's two scoreless innings in front of more than 30 scouts could enhance his ascent. His fastball ranges from 86 to 90 m.p.h., but he commands it very well.

 

"I have an idea about why they send guys [to the AFL]," Egbert said. "I'll take any role I can to get to the majors. I'm going to be 25 and in my fifth year of pro ball. I feel pretty good about my year, and I hope they did too. I want to keep it up."

 

mgonzales@tribune.com

[jasonxctf]

is this right???

 

One is 16-year-old shortstop Juan Silverio, who is playing in the Instructional League after receiving a $600,000 bonus.

[witesoxfan]

is this right???

 

One is 16-year-old shortstop Juan Silverio, who is playing in the Instructional League after receiving a $600,000 bonus.

 

Yeah

[BearSox]

Eggy's been added to the 40 man I see... not a real shocker.

 

Egbert, 24, pitched himself onto the 40-man roster by winning 12 games with a 3.06 ERA and 165 strikeouts in 161 2/3 innings for Birmingham, and an impressive showing like last week's two scoreless innings in front of more than 30 scouts could enhance his ascent. His fastball ranges from 86 to 90 m.p.h., but he commands it very well.

 

[RME JICO]

is this right???

 

One is 16-year-old shortstop Juan Silverio, who is playing in the Instructional League after receiving a $600,000 bonus.

being discussed here: http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...t&p=1519093

[gosox41]

is this right???

 

One is 16-year-old shortstop Juan Silverio, who is playing in the Instructional League after receiving a $600,000 bonus.

 

 

The question is why did it take this team so long to go after the talent in Latin America. For the last few years the Sox had a golden opportunity to go down and sign very talented players for less cost then signing some of their first round picks. Heck, consider some of the signing bonuses given to guys the last few years only to see them not live up to the hype should further convince Sox management to go after some jsut as talented players for less money.

 

Now that spread narrows because the Yanks and Red Sox have stepped up their scouting in Latin America knowing that they can take advantage of this opporunity.

 

It's a shame considering the Sox have Ozzie Gullen and a piss poor farm system that they're so late to the party.

 

 

Bob

[29andPoplar]

The question is why did it take this team so long to go after the talent in Latin America. For the last few years the Sox had a golden opportunity to go down and sign very talented players for less cost then signing some of their first round picks. Heck, consider some of the signing bonuses given to guys the last few years only to see them not live up to the hype should further convince Sox management to go after some jsut as talented players for less money.

 

Now that spread narrows because the Yanks and Red Sox have stepped up their scouting in Latin America knowing that they can take advantage of this opporunity.

 

It's a shame considering the Sox have Ozzie Gullen and a piss poor farm system that they're so late to the party.

Bob

 

Your statement is untrue. I'm not sure if it's because you're unaware of how things are, or some other reason.

 

The White Sox, and many other teams, sign young Dominican players every year. The Sox sign as many, or more than many other teams. This message board has a Future Sox section where these prospects are discussed, there is even an adopt a prospect feature where the background and other info is presented. You may want to read it, you will learn something.

 

Take a look at the Bristol White Sox roster, you can find it on the Baseball America site. Click on players names, it will take you to a profile page, and you will see how many of those players are from the Dominican and Venezuela and Brazil and others.

 

In addition, they are not "late to the party" at all. Where do you come up with these statements? They have had a Dominican Academy since 1998 and were scouting and signing players well before that. It has not been a case of not signing players, not at all.

 

Now, if your beef or argument is the Sox have not had an influx of impact talent from their efforts in the Dominican, you have a point. But that isn't what you said.

 

Bonuses through the draft are all but mandated. They are basically slotted, so teams pretty much have to pay a certain monetary bonus. One thing the White Sox have done, they've signed their top picks. Not true for many other teams, especially in rounds 3-6. You are intimating the Sox should forego signing picks because they will get a better bang for the buck in the Dominican? Please tell me you're not saying that. Based on sheer numbers, the odds are a lot worse in the Dominican, we are talking about 16 year olds vs. a 20 year old from the draft.

 

If you want more information, please ask. Someone on this site will provide it for you as there are many knowledgeable people here who know what's what.

[103 mph screwball]

If you want more information, please ask. Someone on this site will provide it for you as there are many knowledgeable people here who know what's what.

 

Who was the last Dominican that was signed and developed by the Sox to make the team? Who was the last player from Latin America? Magglio? I can't speak for other posters, but I took their point to mean major league talented Dominican players. How many players from the Dominican have made the major leagues in the last 15 years? Latin America? What percentage were brought up in the Sox system? Statmandu? Where are you:)? I think expectations have been raised with a Latin manager and a World Series title. To their credit, the Sox have brought in impact players from Japan. I humbly await enlightenment from the knowledgeable.

[YASNY]

Who was the last Dominican that was signed and developed by the Sox to make the team? Who was the last player from Latin America? Magglio? I can't speak for other posters, but I took their point to mean major league talented Dominican players. How many players from the Dominican have made the major leagues in the last 15 years? Latin America? What percentage were brought up in the Sox system? Statmandu? Where are you:)? I think expectations have been raised with a Latin manager and a World Series title. To their credit, the Sox have brought in impact players from Japan. I humbly await enlightenment from the knowledgeable.

 

That's what you call throwing down the gauntlet.

[29andPoplar]

Who was the last Dominican that was signed and developed by the Sox to make the team? Who was the last player from Latin America? Magglio? I can't speak for other posters, but I took their point to mean major league talented Dominican players. How many players from the Dominican have made the major leagues in the last 15 years? Latin America? What percentage were brought up in the Sox system? Statmandu? Where are you:)? I think expectations have been raised with a Latin manager and a World Series title. To their credit, the Sox have brought in impact players from Japan. I humbly await enlightenment from the knowledgeable.

 

Somehow I just knew my post would elicit this type of response, laden with sarcasm. It seems to happen a fair amount on this site, I don't know why, but it seems to happen when someone points out the truth.

 

If you'd read his post, you'd see he said the following: "The question is why did it take so long for this team to go after talent in Latin America".

 

To which I responded, factually, they have been signing Latin American talent, particularly Dominican Republic talent, for years. As I have pointed out many times on this site, check the rosters of the Sox minor league teams and go back a few years and check the rosters of the same teams. There are, and were, lots of Latin American talent on those teams.

 

Then, further on in my post, I said the following, which you may have missed, or glossed over in your haste to post a comeback: Now, if your beef or argument is the Sox have not had an influx of impact talent from their efforts in the Dominican, you have a point. But that isn't what you said.

 

So you can interpret meanings all you want. I'll go with what the man said.

 

What would be interesting would be to find out what % of players signed out of the Dominican have reached the majors, for all 30 teams, going back say 15 years. I don't think such information is available because many of the signings aren't listed/publicized/reported.

 

But my point remains, the White Sox have been sourcing and signing prospects from the Dominican for years. They have to get better at getting 16 yr. olds who turn into impact players. That means better sourcing, better development, more money. Note I used the word "better", not the word "begin".

 

[witesoxfan]

For what it's worth, the White Sox did sign probably the best Panamanian player in the MLB right now, depending on how you rate Carlos Lee to Mariano Rivera (because to me, a 3 hitter has more value than a closer)

[103 mph screwball]

Sorry for the sarcasm. It was an emotional reaction to what I interpreted as an arrogant response. I felt compelled to continue the debate. Referring to the point of view that the Sox have not done as well as they should in Latin America as somehow not knowledgeable tends to stifle any kind of response. Your point is taken that they now seem to be doing more. I'm encouraged. The feeling that that the Sox have not done as well as they should comes from the lack of impact players over the last decade as compared to other teams. Anyhow, I appreciate your contribution here 29th.

[103 mph screwball]

In fact I quote you in my sig.

[29andPoplar]

In fact I quote you in my sig.

 

Did not notice that, thanks! Forgot I even said that, must have been around the trade deadline or something.

[gosox41]

Somehow I just knew my post would elicit this type of response, laden with sarcasm. It seems to happen a fair amount on this site, I don't know why, but it seems to happen when someone points out the truth.

 

If you'd read his post, you'd see he said the following: "The question is why did it take so long for this team to go after talent in Latin America".

 

To which I responded, factually, they have been signing Latin American talent, particularly Dominican Republic talent, for years. As I have pointed out many times on this site, check the rosters of the Sox minor league teams and go back a few years and check the rosters of the same teams. There are, and were, lots of Latin American talent on those teams.

 

Then, further on in my post, I said the following, which you may have missed, or glossed over in your haste to post a comeback: Now, if your beef or argument is the Sox have not had an influx of impact talent from their efforts in the Dominican, you have a point. But that isn't what you said.

 

So you can interpret meanings all you want. I'll go with what the man said.

 

What would be interesting would be to find out what % of players signed out of the Dominican have reached the majors, for all 30 teams, going back say 15 years. I don't think such information is available because many of the signings aren't listed/publicized/reported.

 

But my point remains, the White Sox have been sourcing and signing prospects from the Dominican for years. They have to get better at getting 16 yr. olds who turn into impact players. That means better sourcing, better development, more money. Note I used the word "better", not the word "begin".

 

Well if what you say is true, I didn't realize the Sox were so active in Latin America. What percentages of their minor leagues have players from Dominican countries versus the league average? Maybe the Sox sign a couple of players a year while some teams sign 5-10. What are we coparing it to? How come this past off season Ozzie was talking about the Sox lack of Latin American's in the minor league system? i remember some comments made when the Sox traded for Carlos Vazquez, how he was talented but it was more to keep Ozzie happy. Is Ozzie familiar with what's going on in the organization?

 

So even if the Sox are as active as you say, under the KW regime they're signing sucky players. Who is our top Latin American prospect and where do you project him?

 

And as for taking atin American players over drafting, all I can say is the Sox have done a crappy job at the draft under KW and I was giving them the benefit of the doubt about being slow to Latin America. But if they're signing as many players as you say, then you're right, it's not worth giving up a second or third round salary to a Latin American player because they're just blowing that money too.

 

 

 

Bob

 

[witesoxfan]

So even if the Sox are as active as you say, under the KW regime they're signing sucky players. Who is our top Latin American prospect and where do you project him?

Bob

 

Fautino De Los Santos. From, of all places, the Dominican Republic. Figures, eh?

 

With his fastball and slider, he projects anywhere from a pretty dominant setup/closer to a #2 starter in the rotation, barring health. He good.

 

No idea when DLS was signed, but he has absolutely fantastic stuff.

[29andPoplar]

Well if what you say is true, I didn't realize the Sox were so active in Latin America. What percentages of their minor leagues have players from Dominican countries versus the league average? Maybe the Sox sign a couple of players a year while some teams sign 5-10. What are we coparing it to? How come this past off season Ozzie was talking about the Sox lack of Latin American's in the minor league system? i remember some comments made when the Sox traded for Carlos Vazquez, how he was talented but it was more to keep Ozzie happy. Is Ozzie familiar with what's going on in the organization?

 

Most of your questions can be answered by reading this site. As I mentioned, there are several very knowledgeable people here who post very good and insightful information (and no I am not lumping myself in with those folks). Actually that was my primary objection to your post, you made a statement which is totally untrue, with information to the contrary being right here at your fingertips on the Future Sox section, adopt a prospect, etc. They are very good sections of this site and everyone is encouraged to read them and digest the information.

 

As for your questions, I'll do my best to answer them, as long as you do your best to dig a little deeper.

 

I do not know what % of their minor league teams have Dominican players vs. league average. Those numbers aren't readily available, short of someone counting birth origins of all 30 teams' minor league teams over the past 6-7 years or longer.

 

I do know the Sox sign several (more than 5, probably less than 10) out of the Dominican just about every year. I keep an eye on their Bristol roster which is their lowest level farm team. There's an influx of Dominican talent every year. Also a few Venezuelans, Brazilians, etc. although signings from Brazil in particular is sporadic.

 

A list was posted, by me, about 2 months ago and maybe someone who knows how to search the old threads in Future Sox section can find it, it's a list of all the White Sox scouts, their territories, etc. On that list you will see they have a presence in just about every baseball player producing country in Latin America, and a particularly heavy (and growing) presence in the Dominican. They just added (transferred) Rafael Santana to help run one of the Dominican academies. They added a 2nd Dominican academy in the last two years. They've had a Dominican academy since '98.

 

As for how come Ozzie was talking about "a lack of Latin Americans" in the minor league system ... I don't recall him saying that. I recall him saying the organization needs to do a better job scouting at all levels, including the Dominican. I specifically recall him saying the Sox should play the "numbers game" in several countries, i.e. sign a handful of guys, at least, every year because it's extremely hard to tell at age 16 who is really good and who isn't. Then I heard him mention, actually question, the Sox minor league development process, insinuating they needed to look at it very closely and make changes (they have, and they are ... see signing of Buddy Bell and keep your eyes peeled for more changes).

 

On the Carlos Vasquez acquisition, where did you hear it was to keep Ozzie happy? Please tell me you didn't hear that from message board posters from WSI who infer Guillen is a racist or prejudiced (there is a great thread now in the roadhouse over there where a guy raises the issue based on his own opinions and gets smacked down with facts). If you really believe Ken Williams and Rick Hahn would go out and acquire a player based on his nationality just to keep Guillen happy, then you don't know those two men's motives at all.

 

Is Ozzie familiar with what's going on in the organization? It's too broad brushed of a question to answer. Just like any big league manager, I'm sure he's more familiar with some things than others.

 

Do they need to do a better job sourcing and signing talent? Of course they do. Every team needs to do better, no team is perfect. Some are better than others, and it is a constant cycle of examing what's being done and doing the right things to improve.

[29andPoplar]

Just to add to this.

 

Taking a quick look at Bristol's 2007 roster I counted 15 players from Latin American countries. Countries represented include the Dominican Republic, Columbia, Brazil, Mexico, and Venezuela. All of those countries have a full time White Sox scout but I'm going from memory on that. Definitely a part timer at minimum.

[Texsox]

There is a reason that just about every healthy male who owns a glove is drafted by MLB each year. The baseball draft has the lowest predictive quality of the major sports. I don't know whether it is the long maturation process in the minor leagues, or the vast amount of talent entering the system but looking at the 25 man roster and tracing it back to country of origin doesn't say much.

[Jack Parkman]

Just an idea, but why not try Sweeney in CF? I've seen him play there and he doesn't seem like a defensive liability. It seems like he's not going to hit more than 15-20 HR in a season, but do we really need more than that from our CF? If he can fix the hole on the inside corner of the strike zone, is it fair to say he could possibly be a .280-.300 hitter? Could the Sox live with a .280-.300 average and 10-20 HRs from the CF position? I think that they shouldn't rule it out. Have Anderson and Sweeney duke it out in ST and may the best player win. Then we don't have to pay a ridiculous amount for a CF.

Edited October 17, 2007 by southsida86

[santo=dorf]

Great stuff as usual 29, but you're wasting your time with Bob.

 

Notice how many questions he is asking AFTER you posted all the information, and that was AFTER he made a solid, concrete viewpoint of how KW and co. run their farm. He, along with others, have had this veiwpoint for years and apparently he won't be satisfied until one of KW's teams win the world series with nothing but homegrown Sox players, have one of the smallest payrolls in the league, and sweep the A's in the ALCS (a 3 game sweep won't impress him.)

 

[29andPoplar]

Taking a quick look at Bristol's 2007 roster I counted 15 players from Latin American countries. Countries represented include the Dominican Republic, Columbia, Brazil, Mexico, and Venezuela. All of those countries have a full time White Sox scout but I'm going from memory on that. Definitely a part timer at minimum.

 

Correcting myself here. 14 players from Latin American countries, one from Taiwan, Po Yu Lin.

 

Of the 14:

 

9 from the Dominican Republic

1 from Columbia

3 from Venezuela, one of which is Jose Martinez, an OF who was noted by Baseball America for what it's worth

1 from Mexico

 

2 catchers, 2 shortstops, 1 OF, 1 2B, 8 pitchers.

[29andPoplar]

And now to take this a step further I looked at the Twins' Gulf Coast League team, which is the lowest rung of their system, just as Bristol is with the White Sox. They have 18 non drafted int'l prospects on that roster.

 

They show more products out of the Australian baseball academy, including players from non tradtional baseball producing countries that immigrate to Australia to link up with the Australian baseball academy, which is not exclusive to the Twins, but they do sign players from there. Here's their breakdown.

 

Dominican Republic: 3

Venezuela: 6 (3 infielders and 3 pitchers)

Australia: 3

Puerto Rico: 2

Taiwan: 1

 

The last three players are born in Russia, Czech Republic, and Netherlands. Each of these came through the Australian academy.

 

So what does this prove? To me, not a whole lot other than the White Sox might consider spending more time in Australia because you never know where good talent might surface. To my knowledge the Sox haven't done anything in Australia but I don't know for sure. A few big leaguers have come from down under but not a whole lot.

 

It is my belief teams can still find some good players and even bargains in Japan, Taiwan, and Korea although %'s signed vs. productive are likely the same as the Dominican. Further I am quite comfortable with Sox scout Ray Poitevent watching things there as he is highly regarded and mined talent for the Red Sox for several years. Further the Sox still have a great relationship with Man Soo Lee who tipped them off to Po Yu Lin and can help them in Korea, even on a de facto basis.

 

The Sox need to improve, no question. No one can debate that. I'm sure the same is said on other teams fan boards. I believe it was Chisoxfn who said how critical a good (respected) player development system is in terms of landing these prospects. In addition to money, prospects (and their "buscones", in Latin America meaning basically their agents more or less) want to sign with organizations who treat these kids well and know how to get them up the ladder. Even if a kid maxes out in AAA and plays 7-8 years in North America they will be able to take care of their families in the Dominican Republic (using an example) very very well. So it is a very good thing the White Sox are beefing up the player develpment area, and hopefully improving it so they are perceived as one of the chosen teams.

 

One thing which has totally gone under the radar, to borrow a much overused phrase - Williams and Hahn and others have insisted especially the last two years that White Sox scouts and player development people establish excellent relationships and contacts in these countries, particularly Latin America but the Pacific Rim as well. That is why you see a guy like Ruben Amaro Sr. hired, that is why you see a guy like Rafael Santana being transferred to the Dominican operations. In general guys like Amaro and Santana would much prefer to live in the U.S. but if they're paid well and treated well they will go to the DR and help the White Sox there. Again it isn't always about money although that is primary. It is relationships. It is reputation too. All of this stuff never is spoken about, nor is it publicized. But it is in fact going on.

[Gregory Pratt]

For what it's worth, the White Sox did sign probably the best Panamanian player in the MLB right now, depending on how you rate Carlos Lee to Mariano Rivera (because to me, a 3 hitter has more value than a closer)

 

Who's more valuable? I don't know for sure. But Rivera is definitely better at his job than Lee at his.

[Heads22]

Who's more valuable? I don't know for sure. But Rivera is definitely better at his job than Lee at his.

 

Nothing like faulting an All-Star for not being a Hall of Famer.