You knew it was coming

[southsideirish71]

Yet on the other hand, Detroit, who you specifically mention, made the EXACT same mistake in 07' that Kenny made in 06', and now have gambled basically their entire farm system on bringing a title to Motown within the next two seasons. Are they a better team on paper right now, absolutely. Do they have any pitching? Uhhh...

I don't see anything wrong with what Kenny said regarding the Tigers competing with the White Sox. How people can continually ignore the fact that teams come out of nowhere each and every year and compete with, or exceed the performance of other teams that on paper look far more dangerous is beyond me. If you want to award the division to Detroit or Cleveland right now, go right ahead. Just as people awarded it to us prior to 06', and most to the Tigers last season.

 

I'm not going to argue that Cabrera wasn't a wonderful acquisition for the Marlins. He's an incredible player and it's hard to go wrong when trading for someone so advanced in skill at his young age. Yet the Tigers have problems of their own- they've got a core that is filled with aging veterans that WILL experience injury and WILL see their production decline over the next two years. Yet they look at themselves now and they have very little pitching and a farm system devoid of a whole ton of talent. Can they win it all this year? Perhaps. Had we taken the same gamble would KW be getting railed here for something so reckless and short-sighted, absolutely. But I guess the grass is always greener....right now, Mark Shapiro/Dave Dombrowski/Billy Smith/Dayton Moore are all geniuses, while the Stanford guy is dumb as rocks.

 

 

I am sure you can cite plenty of examples of 90 loss dogs that added a SS and a setup guy losing their number 2 or 3 pitcher but keeping the team in tact and went on to challenge for the division. Or did the perfect storm only his 35th street.

 

In 06 our pitching pretty much stunk all year long. We heard the excuses of the World Baseball classic and the work load from the previous WS year. Well the Tigers are good and rested. And as depleted as their system is from before. Its still leaps and bounds over what we have had over the last few years.

Edited December 6, 2007 by southsideirish71

[Dick Allen]

Yet on the other hand, Detroit, who you specifically mention, made the EXACT same mistake in 07' that Kenny made in 06', and now have gambled basically their entire farm system on bringing a title to Motown within the next two seasons. Are they a better team on paper right now, absolutely. Do they have any pitching? Uhhh...

I don't see anything wrong with what Kenny said regarding the Tigers competing with the White Sox. How people can continually ignore the fact that teams come out of nowhere each and every year and compete with, or exceed the performance of other teams that on paper look far more dangerous is beyond me. If you want to award the division to Detroit or Cleveland right now, go right ahead. Just as people awarded it to us prior to 06', and most to the Tigers last season.

 

I'm not going to argue that Cabrera wasn't a wonderful acquisition for the Marlins. He's an incredible player and it's hard to go wrong when trading for someone so advanced in skill at his young age. Yet the Tigers have problems of their own- they've got a core that is filled with aging veterans that WILL experience injury and WILL see their production decline over the next two years. Yet they look at themselves now and they have very little pitching and a farm system devoid of a whole ton of talent. Can they win it all this year? Perhaps. Had we taken the same gamble would KW be getting railed here for something so reckless and short-sighted, absolutely. But I guess the grass is always greener....right now, Mark Shapiro/Dave Dombrowski/Billy Smith/Dayton Moore are all geniuses, while the Stanford guy is dumb as rocks.

Its not worth arguing now, because there simply is no way KW is going to go into the 2008 season with the current roster. We shall see, but unless he can significantly upgrade the roster, he should at least consider at the very least a partial rebuild.

[LVSoxFan]

I'm tired of hearing Kenny Wannestedt's proclamations about how all the pieces are in place.

 

He got away with it in '06 because they had a good first half and on paper, most people believed with the addition of Thome we were a better team.

 

Last year however he seemed to be watching somebody else's team, as he'd confidently give us the Wannestedt schtick about how even though we sucked as... this team would... well I don' t know what he thought was going to change. What we got from KW was "stay the course."

 

Well, we did and it resulted in the most crappy, dismal Sox season I can remember in recent history. Remember how he didn't pull any triggers at the ASB last year? Not that it would have saved us, but KW was all about how the talent is here, it just needs to like, happen or something.

 

Then came the merciful end of the season and heading into December, all the bold talk about how 2006 was unacceptable and he was going to catch the big fish and turn the season around. He then proceeds to get sniped (for you Ebay users) by the Angels for Torii, after our deal was all over the media... which you should remember as he b****es about loose lips.

 

From what I can see we traded away an elite (face it, in today's pitcher's market Garland is gold) starter for a rental player. Then he got zapped by Detroit--like we ever had a chance--for Cabrera AND Detroit gets Willis? Crap! And with a straight face he claims Detroit is now up to competing with our sorry-ass, fourth place team? Yeahright. They'll be looking at us in the rearview mirror as Kansas City leapfrogs us out of last place, like they almost did last year.

 

KW should do what he never does: shut up already.

 

Now it appears they're playing hardball with Rowand--way to alienate him, BTW--although even a Rowand fan like me believes he alone will hardly save this team.

 

Yes, Soxfest ought to be a hoot. I might even go just to be there for the bloodshed.

[29andPoplar]

Its not worth arguing now, because there simply is no way KW is going to go into the 2008 season with the current roster.

 

That's pretty much it.

 

As frustrating as these winter meetings were for me as a White Sox fan, I wonder how most of the other teams fans feel. Seems to me there was a huge log jam. Lots of talk but not a lot of action, save for the Florida-Detroit deal. It's odd. Teams seem to be waiting longer and longer into the offseason.

 

Maybe the Santana auction is holding everything up. A couple of the key FA's have signed but I was almost shocked at the lack of trades at these meetings, not just the Sox but all across baseball.

[joejoesox]

the sad thing about this whole situation is even if we did get Cabrera and Willis and devoid our whole farm system of what little talent we have there, i still don't think that makes us a contender in this division, i'd imagine we'd see something along the lines of TIGERS ACQUIRE SANTANA or some other huge blockbuster deal

 

 

[Gregory Pratt]

Asked about entering the season with John Danks and Gavin Floyd in the backend of his starting rotation, Williams responded, "Well, they're in the back-end of the rotation now, but in 29 other rooms around the building right here these are two guys that everyone would want, and most people in the industry view as top-of-the-rotation guys. Our pitching is not going to be a problem this year. We'll be fine in that area."

 

And people got mad at me for asking if Floyd would be our opening day starter!

[Chombi]

And people got mad at me for asking if Floyd would be our opening day starter!

 

I think Kenny has flipped his marbles though.

 

We got Floyd for essentially nothing. The big player in the deal for us was Gio.

 

Floyd is my boy. I've stuck with his beatings and I get texts from friends when he pitches as to whether I am on or off "The Floyd Express".

 

I am not a pitching coach but I played baseball for my whole life and understand it a little. To me Floyd is an easy fix but with no one making it, maybe I am wrong.

 

A key thing when you're pitching is hiding the baseball. He doesn't do it. He sticks it straight out and holds it for the hitter to lock onto. If they can just fix that, his stuff is good. Not to mention he may pick up a few mph on that fastball again because hiding the ball will most likely force him to use the full windmill throwing motion as opposed to the Keith Foulke-no arm rotation. "Ball into your back pocket and push off the rubber" were the big things I was always told. Floyd hardly does either anymore and if I had him under my control that is where I would start.

 

I can't figure out what team would want him in their rotation though? Maybe Kw just thinks that because several teams have offered him bat boy's in exchange for Floyd and Kenny thinks they are serious offers.

 

Danks I can see because he is so young and left-handed. He really needs to step up though because I can't see what value this guy has with another season like lasts.

[stretchstretch]

Two very good posts. Kenny Williams may not be the best GM in baseball but I'll take his aggressiveness and go down swinging attitude over the let's just give up attitude most of this board seems to have. Quite frankly that is how losers think. I don't want the Sox organization or players talking or thinking like losers. So Detroit and Cleveland look better on paper. The games aren't played on paper. On paper the Chicago Bears should be in first place and preparing for the playoffs. There is absolutely no way anyone can predict how this season will play out. We haven't even started Spring Training and people have written this season off and are threating not to show up for games. That's just sad.

Will it be tough to make the playoffs? Hell yes. But if a team has any kind of character or toughness at all, they won't care about what the odds are. They'll go out and bust their asses trying to win it all anyway. That's what should be expected and I sure hope that is what we get regardless of what kind of "talent" we have on paper.

 

 

The Bears aren't going to the playoffs???????

[stretchstretch]

Actually Rowand has been both GREAT and mediocre. 2 great seasons out of the last 4, and 2 not great.

 

Maybe it would be great to get Fukudome. Maybe it will be mediocre. We'd like to think that his Japanese numbers will translate, but who knows? I read where the Royals new manager (who spent the last 5 years in Japan) was asked about Fukudome. He said he was great in Japan. Second best left handed hitter in the league while he was there. The best? Iwamura who is now on the Rays. Iwamura once hit 44 homers in Japan. He hit 7 for Tampa last year. Put up a .770 OPS which is a notch above league average- not bad at all for the $1.8 million he's making. Iguchi came over here and wasn't the star with power and speed that he was in Japan, but he put up league average numbers or a notch above. Not bad for as little as we were paying him. Fukudome, however looks to get 10, 12, 13, 14 million a year. Nobody f***ing knows how his numbers will translate. Nobody knows if his .400 OBPs will go to .360. Or if his career .537 SLG will drop significantly. Iwamura had a .544 SLG in 2006, which went to .411 in Tampa last year. Fukudome seems like a savior because nobody's seen him play. Nobody's seen him play badly. Nobody knows yet how he'll play here. In the absence of any evidence to the contrary, his shiny numbers from Japan give people false certainty that he'll be great.

 

I hope we get one of the centerfielders. Nobody knows whether Fukudome, or Rowand, or Cameron (leaving Petco and coming to the Cell), or Milton Bradley will have a better year next year. It's a crapshoot. I do know that $90 million for Torri Hunter is a retarded joke, though.

 

 

What did Boston pay, like 50M just to negotiate with DiceK? Did his numbers justify the investment, he was decent but Josh Beckett he is not.

 

[fathom]

I really get the feeling KW's going to explode soon.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/20...-baseball_N.htm

[Gregory Pratt]

Sounds like an admission that we don't have a fighting chance.

[fathom]

Sounds like an admission that we don't have a fighting chance.

 

Which I totally agree with....so don't waste money on a veteran and start going young.

[Steve9347]

I really get the feeling KW's going to explode soon.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/20...-baseball_N.htm

Man, there's some really good quotes in that article from many execs across the league. That was a tasty read.

[witesoxfan]

You know, slightly off-topic, but the NL should really add the DH. The pitcher batting suckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkks

[Harry Chappas]

I posted this in an other thread. Why is no NL team going all out to win now? The cubs are closest but they are not gettting exactly what they need. There are a ton of teams that are missing a piece or two but know they do not need to get it to succeed. The NL palyoffs were a disgrace and they could be worse this year.

 

The things the Dodgers do is mind numbing. Arizona needed bats so what are they going to do.........go after pitching.

 

It seems that the NL is afraid to give up young players in trades. I believe the reason for this is they do not have to. They can go cheap and be successful.

 

Am I crazy to think that the talent in the NL is so weak that the really good hitters and pitchers become extremely overrated because they get to face substandard talent? The AL runs a good team out there just about every night while the NL barely has a good team. For every Aaraon Harang, Jake Peavy and Brandon Webb there are three Cory Lidle's and Jeff Suppan's. I really think the stats can almost be skewed based on ths differntial in talent in the AL and NL.

[sircaffey]

"If I ever leave this job or if I ever get fired," Williams says, "I'm not coming back to the American League. I'm going to the National League. You've got a fighting chance over there."

 

FINALLY!!!!!!!! Now start trading the vets. And Kenny, don't worry, you will get fired.

[SoIL]

The Bears aren't going to the playoffs???????

 

Ummm, sure don't look like it.

[iamshack]

Which I totally agree with....so don't waste money on a veteran and start going young.

 

He's honestly got to sit down with JR sometime soon, whether it be now, at the ASB, or after this season, and say "look, we've got to either go balls to the wall here and trade every asset we've got to field a team that can actually win against the Boston's, the Yankees', the Indians and Tigers NOW, or we've got to trade the veterans we have now so we can acquire the young players necessary to win against them in 3-4 years.

 

I'm sure they've had conversations such as this recently...but I'll bet it was a half-assed one. They need to honestly sit down, look at EVERYTHING- the economics, the farm, the contracts, and either crap or get off the pot. Because after missing out on Hunter and MCab, we are just sitting on the pot right now.

[klaus kinski]

"If I ever leave this job or if I ever get fired," Williams says, "I'm not coming back to the American League. I'm going to the National League. You've got a fighting chance over there."

 

FINALLY!!!!!!!! Now start trading the vets. And Kenny, don't worry, you will get fired.

 

They'll never fire him-but will promote him-just to get him out of there

 

[sircaffey]

They'll never fire him-but will promote him-just to get him out of there

 

Whatever gets him out of player personnel decisions.

[Chombi]

He's honestly got to sit down with JR sometime soon, whether it be now, at the ASB, or after this season, and say "look, we've got to either go balls to the wall here and trade every asset we've got to field a team that can actually win against the Boston's, the Yankees', the Indians and Tigers NOW, or we've got to trade the veterans we have now so we can acquire the young players necessary to win against them in 3-4 years.

 

I'm sure they've had conversations such as this recently...but I'll bet it was a half-assed one. They need to honestly sit down, look at EVERYTHING- the economics, the farm, the contracts, and either crap or get off the pot. Because after missing out on Hunter and MCab, we are just sitting on the pot right now.

 

Sometime soon is within the next few weeks. If they play this out until next offseason it will be bad for us. Value will most likely drop on all guys who are proven because of age, contract, etc.

 

It they are going to go all in it needs to happen now and if they play on rebuilding, that should happen now too. Waiting may not help the situation. In a case like MB or something it might. A deadline deal for a team itching for an SP.

 

Otherwise, blow it up or go for it, but do something now. Don't let this team limp through the season with it weighing on them. They don't appear to be very good as it is, don't make it worse.

[The Ginger Kid]

Sounds like an admission that we don't have a fighting chance.

that's funny, i didn't get that at all. Just sounds like some frustration from a very competitive guy (and I'm not a ra-ra Kenny guy). What exactly sounded like a concession?

[Gregory Pratt]

that's funny, i didn't get that at all. Just sounds like some frustration from a very competitive guy (and I'm not a ra-ra Kenny guy). What exactly sounded like a concession?

 

I wish we could be in the National League where we'd have a fighting chance!

 

Literally:

 

"I'm not coming back to the American League. I'm going to the National League. You've got a fighting chance over there."

 

Here, it's hard to have a fighting chance with fifty cents, restrictions with Scott Boras and no farm, I guess. Doesn't help when the huge payrolls are in the East, Detroit's spending money, four of the better GMs in baseball are in your division and the division is stacked.

Edited December 11, 2007 by Gregory Pratt

[ptatc]

I wish we could be in the National League where we'd have a fighting chance!

 

Literally:

Here, it's hard to have a fighting chance with fifty cents, restrictions with Scott Boras and no farm, I guess. Doesn't help when the huge payrolls are in the East, Detroit's spending money, four of the better GMs in baseball are in your division and the division is stacked.

Which are the four Dombrowski, Shapiro..........

[The Ginger Kid]

I wish we could be in the National League where we'd have a fighting chance!

 

Literally:

Here, it's hard to have a fighting chance with fifty cents, restrictions with Scott Boras and no farm, I guess. Doesn't help when the huge payrolls are in the East, Detroit's spending money, four of the better GMs in baseball are in your division and the division is stacked.

Okay, I see your point. But I still think he's just reeling from the frustration. He'll make some deals - whether they're good or bad we'll see. But after last year's debacle with the bullpen I don't see where he should be getting much slack from Reinsdorf.