qwerty Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) Anyone we leadoff or put in the two hole are being placed in a bad situation. Cabrera has been in and out of the 1-2 for years, sure, does that mean he is being utilized the best there? No. Cabrera is best suited batting 8th-9th, just the type of hitter he has shown he is over the years. His positives would be his gap power and lack of k's, negatives would easily be his batting average, obp, and even his overall power. Should be noted in 2000 cabrera had a worse ops+ (66) than owens had last season (67) and worse than uribe has ever done while with the white sox (76 in 2006). Owens leading off and cabrera number two? This would easily be one of the worst 1-2 combinations in the league. Owens has not shown in the minors he is capable of being a major league caliber leadoff hitter and last season was no indicator to expect a vaaaaaaaast he improvement he would have to have to be benificial to the team. Owens seems to be the new posednik of soxtalk... but i suppose with ever team comes a player that the fans love because of there good looks? Is that it? Or because he runs fast? Not quite sure what his case is yet. Cabrera leading of and swisher batting second? Leading off cabrera is even worse than him batting second... but the real kick in the ass is swisher would therefore slowly but surely be getting wasted batting in the two hole.. Swisher has the homerun power (which is one of the many reasons he will be hindered in the 2 hole, yet lacks the average (good chance he improves slightly in that regard this season) and gap power. He would be utilized to his fullest ability batting either 5-6 while slipping cabrera down to the 8-9 hole, Cabrera career .724 ops~~~ juan uribe .722... and yes i know what parks and leagues each played in. Cabrera's ops+ which is of course adjusted is only 6 points higher than uribe's (86 to 80). Basically it has come down to the realization that there is no free agent signing or trade on the horizon to shore this up. Sox are short four and a half players/positions and that is likely the difference from making the playoffs and being a serious contender and us fighting to hit that .500 mark. No one even close to ideal to bat 1-2, pitch in the 3-4 spots in the rotation, and field center. Swisher will field adequately, but will still leave me (and hopefully others) wanting more. Edited January 30, 2008 by qwerty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 What I've been saying as well. We have no leadoff guy. Owens is not the solution either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_LEE45 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 i would still love for kenny to go get pierre(dodgers paying some of his contract) pierre CF Swish LF Konerko 1b Thome DH Dye RF Fields 3rd AJ C O-CAB SS Ozuna/Richar 2nd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 Cabrera - Swisher - Thome - Konerko - Dye - Fields - Pierzynski - Quentin - Richar This way you minimize the number of weak-ass, punchless, low OBP hitters at the top before you get the real baseball players. It's not ideal and you're probably hurting Swisher but at least you're putting one high on base hitter ahead of the Thome/Kong/Dye threesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigruss Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 06:30 PM) Cabrera - Swisher - Thome - Konerko - Dye - Fields - Pierzynski - Quentin - Richar This way you minimize the number of weak-ass punchless low OBP hitters at the top before you get the real baseball players. As much as I want Cabrera in the 2 hole, Im liking that lineup, and I think that Quentin could develop into a leadoff hitter with his OBP and good speed (not a huge threat to steal, but runs well) but maybe he has too much power for that spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daa84 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 06:30 PM) Cabrera - Swisher - Thome - Konerko - Dye - Fields - Pierzynski - Quentin - Richar This way you minimize the number of weak-ass, punchless, low OBP hitters at the top before you get the real baseball players. It's not ideal and you're probably hurting Swisher but at least you're putting one high on base hitter ahead of the Thome/Kong/Dye threesome. ^^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max power Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 (edited) Yeah I like it too with the current roster. And if richar pans out to what he can be you stick him first. That's assuming danny gets on at a higher obp. Edited January 30, 2008 by max power Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 QUOTE(max power @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 03:43 PM) Yeah I like it too with the current roster. And if richar pans out to what he can be you stick him first. That's assuming danny gets on at a higher obp. One interesting thing about Danny, for a guy without big time power his walk rate wasn't that bad last year. In his first stint in the majors, while being pretty raw, he had a bb/ab rate of .085, which over a full season would come to around 45 walks and which, if he hit .300, would put him with a .350 OBP. His numbers in the minors for walks/ab were actually better than that and he could potentially push those numbers higher simply by adapting to the league better. He's not going to give us a .380 OBP or anything like that though if his historical numbers are any guide...and personally, I think from looking at their stats, Owens is more likely to give us a .350 + OBP next year than Danny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcpweiner Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 I'm firmly in Kalapse's camp on this one. "Leadoff hitters" are overrated. Cabrera and Swisher will do just fine up there with the roster currently organized as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 11:30 PM) Cabrera - Swisher - Thome - Konerko - Dye - Fields - Pierzynski - Quentin - Richar This way you minimize the number of weak-ass, punchless, low OBP hitters at the top before you get the real baseball players. It's not ideal and you're probably hurting Swisher but at least you're putting one high on base hitter ahead of the Thome/Kong/Dye threesome. interesting idea. based upon career averages mathmatically, this means that you'd have a 57% chance of having a man on base to start the game before Thome steps to the plate. if you go with owens and then cabrera, this % drops to 54%. 3% x 162 games= 5 extra shots of Thome starting a game with a man on base. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted January 31, 2008 Author Share Posted January 31, 2008 QUOTE(rcpweiner @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 05:05 PM) I'm firmly in Kalapse's camp on this one. "Leadoff hitters" are overrated. Cabrera and Swisher will do just fine up there with the roster currently organized as it is. I fully agree, the worst hitter ( if not the worst one of them) should be the one with the most chances to make an out, fully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonxctf Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 take this a step further, this means that with Thome hitting 3rd... there is a 25.4% chance that the Sox go 1-2-3 in the first with Cabrera, Swisher, Thome. And a 31.9% chance that the Sox go 1-2-3 in the first with Owens, Cabrera, Thome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Cabrera has a career OBP of .321, which was his post ASB OBP in 2007. He should not leadoff. If Cabrera/Swisher are the top 2, make Swisher the leadoff guy. He gets on, Cabrera can move him over. The 2 hole guy gives himself up a lot. Why have one of your biggest threats be that guy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Guess that's why the Sox need Brian Roberts eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Swisher isn't a leadoff hitter. You don't put a power hitter, who does get on base, but hits for a low average, as your leadoff hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 QUOTE(knightni @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 06:16 PM) Guess that's why the Sox need Brian Roberts eh? I think another player will be acquired before the season starts that can leadoff. Probably not Roberts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_LEE45 Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 QUOTE(knightni @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 07:16 PM) Guess that's why the Sox need Brian Roberts eh? now were talking but is kenny listening Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 07:25 PM) I think another player will be acquired before the season starts that can leadoff. Probably not Roberts. How many quality 2B with leadoff ability are available right now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 QUOTE(BearSox @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 06:24 PM) Swisher isn't a leadoff hitter. You don't put a power hitter, who does get on base, but hits for a low average, as your leadoff hitter. Ideally you don't put a career .321 OBP guy in the leadoff spot either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 QUOTE(knightni @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 06:27 PM) How many quality 2B with leadoff ability are available right now? Probably none, except for maybe Roberts. I just don't see Angelos dealing him for a package of White Sox prospects and/or Richar. I think they will get a guy like Freel or Duffy or Winn or someone like that to leadoff, unless Owens goes nuts in spring training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearSox Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jan 30, 2008 -> 06:27 PM) Ideally you don't put a career .321 OBP guy in the leadoff spot either. true... that's why we still need a leadoff hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...p;#entry1567539 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Get used to it, boys...I think you are looking at the position players going into the season. If anything, the Sox will get another pitcher. JMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanut33tillman Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 Qwerty do u really believe O-Cab would be better suited as a 8 or 9 hole hitter honestly? How do you figure? Cabrera hit over 300 last year with over 600 ABs in the 2 slot, granted his OBP I believe was somewhere around .350 but this kid is the ideal 2 hole hitter for this ball club.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted January 31, 2008 Share Posted January 31, 2008 This is what I posted in the original Swisher thread, I stand by it: Jan 3, 2008 -> 01:17 PM Steve, You could keep Dye, Thome, Konerko for this year pretty easily. The question is how would you set the line up with those 3 and Swisher. Because of Swishers patience and the fact hes a switch hitter, I some what feel the Sox may try him in the 2 hole with O-Cab leading off. 1. O-Cab 2. Swisher 3. Thome 4. Konerko 5. Dye 6. Fields 7. AJP 8. Quentin 9. Richar You sacrifice a little speed the first time through the order, but after that you have Richar at 9 so should he get on O-cab becomes the 2 and it sets up the offense nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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