The Democrat Thread

[mr_genius]

yeah, this isn't a bad argument.

 

I'm tired of AA getting so overblown in regards to college. If you really didn't get in in favor of a minority, then you were on the fringe and you could have done a lot more to get in. You probably then went to another school and got a very similar education and your life is not different.

 

I went to school in missouri with kids who'd never been to school with black people before. I'd say that the cultural knowledge they learned was pretty important. And missouri is no model for cultural diversity, i think it's 85 or so percent white, a big part of this is due to the atrocious school systems of st. louis and kansas city, so bad that a lot of their HS aren't even accredited anymore. Those school districts serve mostly black students. The state school, which actually keeps academic standards down to be available to the state (which i actually liked), still only has about 5% black population.

 

But white people are getting screwed, man.

 

don't blindly disavow a system that is designed to help the disadvantaged regardless of race. remember, the students you are talking about here would certainly qualify for assistance based on need, rather than based merely on race.

Edited August 7, 2010 by mr_genius

[kapkomet]

Well, I honestly don't know what to say to that. I had a post all written in my head about examples demonstrating otherwise, but meh. I'm too tired and I know that it wouldn't matter.

 

On a lighter note, this must make AA the MUST EFFECTIVE law ever in the history of time. In 20 years it completely undid 200 years worth of f***ery.

 

I'm not saying that minorities are not discriminated against - and of course they shouldn't be. But I am saying that everyone's being discriminated against because everyone's trying so hard to not discriminate. I know that's almost bad logic, but think about it.

 

To bmags's point, so some white kid gets knocked out because a college has to accept a certain amount of minorities, okay... but maybe that asian should have tried a little harder as well so they wouldn't have been accepted over someone who is more qualified just because they're asian. Wrong is wrong.

 

Lost, people get awarded business or do not get awarded business EVERY DAY because X women and X minorities are or are not part of an organization, and the LAW says business can or cannot be awared on this basis. Again, wrong is wrong. My business can do something for half the cost, but let's spend more money because AA laws say so. Hell, you could cut 5% of the government on this alone, which is a trillion of the deficit. I know, though, we can't do that, now can we?

 

 

[Soxy]

I'm not saying that minorities are not discriminated against - and of course they shouldn't be. But I am saying that everyone's being discriminated against because everyone's trying so hard to not discriminate. I know that's almost bad logic, but think about it.

 

To bmags's point, so some white kid gets knocked out because a college has to accept a certain amount of minorities, okay... but maybe that asian should have tried a little harder as well so they wouldn't have been accepted over someone who is more qualified just because they're asian. Wrong is wrong.

 

Lost, people get awarded business or do not get awarded business EVERY DAY because X women and X minorities are or are not part of an organization, and the LAW says business can or cannot be awared on this basis. Again, wrong is wrong. My business can do something for half the cost, but let's spend more money because AA laws say so. Hell, you could cut 5% of the government on this alone, which is a trillion of the deficit. I know, though, we can't do that, now can we?

And I think mr genius (i think) raises a better point about socioeconomic status being a barrier more than race itself. And bmags (i think) raises a good point about how the education system itself precludes equal access to education in general. What are the educational attainment rates for African Americans? For whites? For latinos? For Asians? For men? For women?

 

I have been thinking about it. But I keep coming back to what you said about how white people (I won't even say men here) have a sense of entitlement.

 

What we have because of AA is (potentially) minorities that are able (FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY) to actually COMPETE with white people for jobs. Compete not because they are minorities but because it's illegal to throw their application in the bin (although it still happens). So, if you see more minorities getting jobs maybe it is because we are finally in a place where we view minorities as competetive competent additions to the workforce. Maybe the reason you see more women getting jobs is because we aren't regulated only to be a nurse or teacher (which, btw, was still told to women in the 70s and 80s). So, maybe it's not that white men are being discriminated against--it's that they are no longer being handed jobs simply because they are there and white and dudes. Maybe now they actually have to f***ing compete with people that 50 years ago would have been laughed out of the office.

 

How is AA more expensive? Because of the hiring practices and the extra steps in the process? The way I have seen AA enforced to me it seems more like they check the pool to certify that it's representative and that there wasn't discrimination in the process.

 

I have had this conversation a million times with my dad. He's in construction and was, until recently, unemployed for about 18 months. It was hard, he couldn't get a job for love or for money. Was it because he was a white man? Or was it because he is highly skilled and expensive ($40/hr) and too old to be a good investment for an employer? All of this bulls*** about the "mancession" or whatever. My dad had done well for himself for so long that he thought that was how it would always be. That he would always be able to get a job with healthcare and pension and long term security. Well guess what, it's cheaper to higher someone without experience, without a family and someone who doesn't know his own worth. But it's easier to say that "mexicans are taking his job." Or that white men are being oppressed. No. I'm sorry I don't buy it.

[bmags]

don't blindly disavow a system that is designed to help the disadvantaged regardless of race. remember, the students you are talking about here would certainly qualify for assistance based on need, rather than based merely on race.

 

there should be a mr. genius font.

[mr_genius]

there should be a mr. genius font.

 

i introduced one, but Northside72 refuses to implement it

[Soxy]

i introduced one, but Northside72 refuses to implement it

 

We all refuse. Because we are out to get you.

 

Solidarity against mr_genius.

[bmags]

i introduced one, but Northside72 refuses to implement it

 

it should be bright yellow, destroying retinas.

[mr_genius]

it should be bright yellow, destroying retinas.

 

it is. but because of the vast conspiracy being leveled against me, it will probably never be used

[Soxy]

it is. but because of the vast conspiracy being leveled against me, it will probably never be used

 

It will be used--but only against you.

[bmags]

it is. but because of the vast conspiracy being leveled against me, it will probably never be used

 

won't stop me

[mr_genius]

It will be used--but only against you.

 

it really is a great font. so readable and pleasant

[Balta1701]

don't blindly disavow a system that is designed to help the disadvantaged regardless of race. remember, the students you are talking about here would certainly qualify for assistance based on need, rather than based merely on race.

One thing worth pointing out in response...

 

College costs are the only thing going up at a rate that makes health care costs look cheap.

 

When we start talking about the disadvantages according to economic status...the last 30 years have seen massive increases in those disadvantages as part of conscious policy choices at the Federal and state level. Retirement packages other than Social Security have been eroded. Medical care costs have skyrocketed, and businesses that offer medical benefits have cut back. Average wages have eroded. Educational costs have gone up, and they've gone up without any sort of offset.

 

These are deliberate choices in many cases. Some have described them as the "ownership society" plan. We finally have slapped a bandaid on the health care part...but that especially only does so much in our new 10% unemployment world.

[Balta1701]

On a different subject...Fareed Zakaria FTW.

[bmags]

One thing worth pointing out in response...

 

College costs are the only thing going up at a rate that makes health care costs look cheap.

 

When we start talking about the disadvantages according to economic status...the last 30 years have seen massive increases in those disadvantages as part of conscious policy choices at the Federal and state level. Retirement packages other than Social Security have been eroded. Medical care costs have skyrocketed, and businesses that offer medical benefits have cut back. Average wages have eroded. Educational costs have gone up, and they've gone up without any sort of offset.

 

These are deliberate choices in many cases. Some have described them as the "ownership society" plan. We finally have slapped a bandaid on the health care part...but that especially only does so much in our new 10% unemployment world.

 

It would be encouraging and wonderful if the bachelors degree lost prestige in the next 30 years or at least some other higher education systems gain footing.

[Balta1701]

It would be encouraging and wonderful if the bachelors degree lost prestige in the next 30 years or at least some other higher education systems gain footing.

I'm not sure how either of those are genuinely plausible.

[bmags]

price and technology hopefully.

[Soxy]

It would be encouraging and wonderful if the bachelors degree lost prestige in the next 30 years or at least some other higher education systems gain footing.

Genuinely curious: like what? An AA? Technical school? Some other country's model?

 

In the next 30 years the only changes I see are a shift to online schools and more jobs requiring a BA or more.

[Balta1701]

In the next 30 years the only changes I see are a shift to online schools and more jobs requiring a BA or more.

It's worth noting how poor of a job the for-profit, online-type colleges are doing right now as well.

[kapkomet]

And I think mr genius (i think) raises a better point about socioeconomic status being a barrier more than race itself. And bmags (i think) raises a good point about how the education system itself precludes equal access to education in general. What are the educational attainment rates for African Americans? For whites? For latinos? For Asians? For men? For women?

 

I have been thinking about it. But I keep coming back to what you said about how white people (I won't even say men here) have a sense of entitlement.

 

What we have because of AA is (potentially) minorities that are able (FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY) to actually COMPETE with white people for jobs. Compete not because they are minorities but because it's illegal to throw their application in the bin (although it still happens). So, if you see more minorities getting jobs maybe it is because we are finally in a place where we view minorities as competetive competent additions to the workforce. Maybe the reason you see more women getting jobs is because we aren't regulated only to be a nurse or teacher (which, btw, was still told to women in the 70s and 80s). So, maybe it's not that white men are being discriminated against--it's that they are no longer being handed jobs simply because they are there and white and dudes. Maybe now they actually have to f***ing compete with people that 50 years ago would have been laughed out of the office.

 

How is AA more expensive? Because of the hiring practices and the extra steps in the process? The way I have seen AA enforced to me it seems more like they check the pool to certify that it's representative and that there wasn't discrimination in the process.

 

I have had this conversation a million times with my dad. He's in construction and was, until recently, unemployed for about 18 months. It was hard, he couldn't get a job for love or for money. Was it because he was a white man? Or was it because he is highly skilled and expensive ($40/hr) and too old to be a good investment for an employer? All of this bulls*** about the "mancession" or whatever. My dad had done well for himself for so long that he thought that was how it would always be. That he would always be able to get a job with healthcare and pension and long term security. Well guess what, it's cheaper to higher someone without experience, without a family and someone who doesn't know his own worth. But it's easier to say that "mexicans are taking his job." Or that white men are being oppressed. No. I'm sorry I don't buy it.

 

Well, to be fair, I did say that in my post a couple back - white guys do think they're entitled, and I don't like that point. For me, it's not that "mexicans are taking the white guy's job", it's that they have positions held for them for one of two reasons: the law makes you, or they're cheaper. I said and I agree that white guys, especially older ones, think that they are entitled to walk up and get crap handed to them.

 

I have NEVER thought that way, I think that the best applicant should get the position. When I just went through my 18 month fiasco, I know for a fact that I was a finalist for two positions that I didn't get the job because I wasn't a minority. I was told that - should I go sue? It's against what I'm about - so I don't - but I know the predetermined minority hiring happens.

 

AA is one of those things that was needed, and in a lot of cases unfortunately still is needed. But my entire point is in any situation like this, you've now changed the mindset to where white guys get passed over just so AA is met, and that is just as discriminatory in practice as the crap that AA is supposed to prevent.

[kapkomet]

Genuinely curious: like what? An AA? Technical school? Some other country's model?

 

In the next 30 years the only changes I see are a shift to online schools and more jobs requiring a BA or more.

 

 

One thing that I have NEVER understood is why a technical school education is not given more consideration and value in our society.

[Balta1701]

Well, to be fair, I did say that in my post a couple back - white guys do think they're entitled, and I don't like that point. For me, it's not that "mexicans are taking the white guy's job", it's that they have positions held for them for one of two reasons: the law makes you, or they're cheaper. I said and I agree that white guys, especially older ones, think that they are entitled to walk up and get crap handed to them.

 

I have NEVER thought that way, I think that the best applicant should get the position. When I just went through my 18 month fiasco, I know for a fact that I was a finalist for two positions that I didn't get the job because I wasn't a minority. I was told that - should I go sue? It's against what I'm about - so I don't - but I know the predetermined minority hiring happens.

 

AA is one of those things that was needed, and in a lot of cases unfortunately still is needed. But my entire point is in any situation like this, you've now changed the mindset to where white guys get passed over just so AA is met, and that is just as discriminatory in practice as the crap that AA is supposed to prevent.

The problem we've got right now is we're out of the situation where every minority applicant is unqualified...but the inherent disadvantage hasn't been removed, so it sets up the scenario Kap cites here. I think the salary data right now clearly suggests that even with guys like Kap being passed over for positions, no one can argue effectively that we've reached a position of true "equality" in employment/hiring practices.

 

The problem is...no matter what we do, it's totally unfair to someone and it's going to piss some people off. If you get rid of all AA programs, then when an African American gets turned down for a job at some bank or some company by a guy who happens to not like White People, he or she is going to be just as angry as Kap. Or, if the minority applicant just can't get into a top college because he or she didn't go to an exclusive enough high school, same boat.

[Soxy]

It's worth noting how poor of a job the for-profit, online-type colleges are doing right now as well.

 

Yep. Still the future though. And the policies that are shaping online schools (i.e. no child left behind: college edition) will end up shaping our traditional universities. (And probably will end up shaping the world's universities. Look at the really, really, really sad shift in the British higher education that appears to be coming.)

[Soxy]

One thing that I have NEVER understood is why a technical school education is not given more consideration and value in our society.

Have you ever read anything about the history of higher education in this country? It's actually totes fascinating.

[lostfan]

One thing that I have NEVER understood is why a technical school education is not given more consideration and value in our society.

Me either. Like... it's somehow less than a 4 year degree when it isn't.

[southsider2k5]

One thing that I have NEVER understood is why a technical school education is not given more consideration and value in our society.

 

This country has always looked down at people who work for a living. I am guessing because they have usually been immigrants, and the one great American tradition is looking down at the newest arrivals here.