The Democrat Thread

[kapkomet]

I've never once said that. But that's okay, keep sniping.

 

[BigSqwert]

In this corner we have flip flopping politician who thinks gays should be treated as 2nd class citizens. In this corner we have a flip flopping politician who thinks gays should be treated equally. You're recommending the flip flopping bigot for some reason as the better choice for gay rights.

[kapkomet]

In this corner we have flip flopping politician who thinks gays should be treated as 2nd class citizens. In this corner we have a flip flopping politician who thinks gays should be treated equally. You're recommending the flip flopping bigot for some reason as the better choice for gay rights.

 

 

Nope, I've not said that either.

[BigSqwert]

Nope, I've not said that either.

Well I've read all of your posts in here and either your point isn't very clear or whatever your point is I'm not convinced it has much substance. At the end of the day I am 100% pro gay rights and pro having everyone in this country treated as equals. I don't give 2 s***s how we get there to be honest.

[Soxbadger]

Kap,

 

You by far are my favorite poster.

 

You are really the only person who is either 1) so hilarious that you realize how hypocritical your poster persona is in an attempt to convince us with opposite thought or 2) you are so unreasonable that you cant even see the nonsense of the argument.

 

Usually people start to crack and give up, but you just keep on chugging as if your argument actually has merit, which is why you basically ignore every post except a few where you can change the subject.

 

"Youre sniping, no youre sniping, no one ever responds to my posts, they always just take them out of context, no you do that, no I dont you do."

 

Thats basically all you post. You still havent even said whether you support gay rights or not, and youve posted what 20-50 times? How is that even possible.

[kapkomet]

Well I've read all of your posts in here and either your point isn't very clear or whatever your point is I'm not convinced it has much substance. At the end of the day I am 100% pro gay rights and pro having everyone in this country treated as equals. I don't give 2 s***s how we get there to be honest.

 

You should. That's part of the problem.

 

Here.

 

I'll equate it.

 

Mitt Romney is a reprehenisble asshole for flipflopping on abortion to shake down people just for that reason. So, if *I* believe that abortion is murder, I'm supposed to rush right out and love me some Mitt? WOO HOO. Not. He's a douchebag, for the same reason.

 

Mow, if he had that same conviction and wasn't trying to shake down money and be a whorebag, I might be more apt to believe him.

[Soxbadger]

You should. That's part of the problem.

 

Here.

 

I'll equate it.

 

Mitt Romney is a reprehenisble asshole for flipflopping on abortion to shake down people just for that reason. So, if *I* believe that abortion is murder, I'm supposed to rush right out and love me some Mitt? WOO HOO. Not. He's a douchebag, for the same reason.

 

Mow, if he had that same conviction and wasn't trying to shake down money and be a whorebag, I might be more apt to believe him.

 

This is still nonsensical.

 

You dont support someone for changing to your position. Do you find reasons to complain when your team wins? Like damn, AJ caught a break on drop 3rd strike, the Sox didnt really deserve to win the World Series, so im not going to celebrate because its reprehensible?

 

The whole idea of being a sheep is doing what you are doing, your standing by meaningless constructed principles instead of focusing on the bottom line. It doesnt matter how you get the result, it matters that you get the result you want. If any of these people had principles they wouldnt be in politics, you dont get to a national stage without selling out, it just isnt possible.

 

So I can hate all politicians and sit in a corner pouting, or I can take the victories when they come and do my best to ensure that even if Obama doesnt believe in it, that it happens anyways. Because that is getting what I want, and I sure as hell dont give a damn what Obama really believes, or if he truly wants gays to be equal.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Soxbadger

[BigSqwert]

Andrew Sullivan's take:

 

I do not know how orchestrated this was; and I do not know how calculated it is. What I know is that, absorbing the news, I was uncharacteristically at a loss for words for a while, didn't know what to write, and, like many Dish readers, there are tears in my eyes.

 

So let me simply say: I think of all the gay kids out there who now know they have their president on their side. I think of Maurice Sendak, who just died, whose decades-long relationship was never given the respect it deserved. I think of the centuries and decades in which gay people found it impossible to believe that marriage and inclusion in their own families was possible for them, so crushed were they by the weight of social and religious pressure. I think of all those in the plague years shut out of hospital rooms, thrown out of apartments, written out of wills, treated like human garbage because they loved another human being. I think of Frank Kameny. I think of the gay parents who now feel their president is behind their sacrifices and their love for their children.

 

The interview changes no laws; it has no tangible effect. But it reaffirms for me the integrity of this man we are immensely lucky to have in the White House. Obama's journey on this has been like that of many other Americans, when faced with the actual reality of gay lives and gay relationships. Yes, there was politics in a lot of it. But not all of it. I was in the room long before the 2008 primaries when Obama spoke to the mother of a gay son about marriage equality. He said he was for equality, but not marriage. Five years later, he sees - as we all see - that you cannot have one without the other. But even then, you knew he saw that woman's son as his equal as a citizen. It was a moment - way off the record at the time - that clinched my support for him.

 

Today Obama did more than make a logical step. He let go of fear. He is clearly prepared to let the political chips fall as they may. That's why we elected him. That's the change we believed in. The contrast with a candidate who wants to abolish all rights for gay couples by amending the federal constitution, and who has donated to organizations that seek to "cure" gays, who bowed to pressure from bigots who demanded the head of a spokesman on foreign policy solely because he was gay: how much starker can it get?

 

My view politically is that this will help Obama. He will be looking to the future generations as his opponent panders to the past. The clearer the choice this year the likelier his victory. And after the darkness of last night, this feels like a widening dawn.

Edited May 10, 2012 by BigSqwert

[BigSqwert]

Glenn Greenwald echoes my thoughts:

 

When it comes to assessing a politician, what matters, at least to me, are actions, not motives. If they do the wrong thing, they should be criticized regardless of motive; conversely, if they do the right thing, they should be credited. I’ve had zero tolerance over the last three years for people who pop up to justify all the horrible things Obama has done by claiming that he is forced to do them out of political necessity or in cowardly deference to public opinion; that’s because horrible acts don’t become less horrible because they’re prompted by some rational, self-interested political motive rather than conviction. That’s equally true of positive acts: they don’t become less commendable because they were the by-product of political pressure or self-preservation; when a politician takes the right course of action, as Obama did today, credit is merited, regardless of motive.

 

It should go without saying that none of this mitigates the many horrendous things Obama has done in other areas, nor does it mean he deserves re-election. But just as it’s intellectually corrupted to refuse to criticize him when he deserves it, the same is true of refusing to credit him when he deserves it. Today, he deserves credit. LGBT equality is one area — and it’s an important area for millions of Americans — where he has conducted himself commendably and deserves praise. That was true before today, but even more so now.

Edited May 10, 2012 by BigSqwert

[Reddy]

Kap,

 

You by far are my favorite poster.

 

You are really the only person who is either 1) so hilarious that you realize how hypocritical your poster persona is in an attempt to convince us with opposite thought or 2) you are so unreasonable that you cant even see the nonsense of the argument.

 

Usually people start to crack and give up, but you just keep on chugging as if your argument actually has merit, which is why you basically ignore every post except a few where you can change the subject.

 

"Youre sniping, no youre sniping, no one ever responds to my posts, they always just take them out of context, no you do that, no I dont you do."

 

Thats basically all you post. You still havent even said whether you support gay rights or not, and youve posted what 20-50 times? How is that even possible.

 

thank you for saying what i didn't want to waste time writing.

 

[StrangeSox]

Kap or ss2k5, will either of you unequivocally support gay marriage?

[Rex Kickass]

You people just got snowjobbed and can't even see it or see why (and it has nothing to do with North Carolina).

 

Enjoy your screwjob by your president... because you just got used and abused for a political prop.

 

But the ends always justify the means... right?

 

Better to used as a political prop than a punching bag. GLBT community is so used to being the latter politically, we might actually welcome the former.

[Rex Kickass]

No, a definition of a sheep is just allowing yourself to be sucked in, saying RAH RAH RAH!!! by a weak sauce president who is using a sensitized issue for a political prop and to shake a group down for more money. You all are praising a stance that may be right or wrong (which you keep assuming my stance but you don't know) that is 100% allowing your position to be used. He did it TODAY because the pollsters told him to. Quick. Call GMA, because now I'm for gay marriage! (sic). It's a disgusting, purely political bald face move. I'm glad you all support using gay people like that. I sure don't, and frankly I don't have a problem with the issue at all. But I sure do mind it for a political prop and you all cheer it on ... so hisssstoric!!

 

Actually, I know what your stance is. You've even made it clear on this site several years ago. And I'll even go so far as to agree with you that the timing is suspect. If anything, all this is is a white flag conceding North Carolina to the GOP.

 

I was also well aware that Obama wasn't a GLBT supporter five years ago. He wasn't the primary candidate I supported, because in the 2008 race, the only candidate who supported equality was Bill Richardson. He was just so ham handed, he meant to say it doesn't matter but said being gay is a choice instead. He wasn't our community's best choice in 2008, but he ended up being a pretty damn good one. He ended Don't Ask Don't Tell, decided to stop defending legal challenges to DOMA, appointed the first transgender member of any administration and supported ENDA, which would have made employment discrimination for being gay, bi or transgender illegal, had it not been blocked by the GOP from passage in the Senate. Now four years later, he's finally made the calculus to say he supports marriage equality. That's great! Calculus or not, its still the right decision and I can't fault him for holding the same position as me - even though I wish it had arrived several years earlier.

 

You act as if this is a reason to dislike the man. It's not.

 

Compare this to the other side. And really compare it because when I was listening to the radio last night, Mitt Romney portrayed himself as consistent as long as you only look back to 2007. "My position has been consistent since I started running." He supported GLBT rights in 1994. Ran as an equality candidate. Today, he can't even keep a staffer on the payroll if he's openly gay because of the backlash in his base. In the last 20 years, GLBT rights has come up for a vote 33 times. We haven't won once, because minority rights rarely win majority approval. However, the initiatives seem to be placed magically during elections where an increased vote from evangelicals or other groups that traditionally do not support these minority rights are needed to ensure GOP victories.

 

You act all cynical like we just got bamboozled. We didn't. We were used as a prop. And for once we were used as a prop in a way that actually might benefit us. Consider me happy, because I consider that pretty damn rare. Consider me a sheep. Baaaaaaaaa!

[StrangeSox]

You know, I'm still confused by kap's posts here. It's not like Obama was getting unconditional praise from everyone here for those move.

[StrangeSox]

[southsider2k5]

In this corner we have flip flopping politician who thinks gays should be treated as 2nd class citizens. In this corner we have a flip flopping politician who thinks gays should be treated equally. You're recommending the flip flopping bigot for some reason as the better choice for gay rights.

 

I recommended neither. I recommend the guy who is honest, true to himself, and stands by his principles, no matter what my beliefs are.

 

There is a reason I punched Ron Paul the other day despite there being no reason to do so.

[southsider2k5]

Kap or ss2k5, will either of you unequivocally support gay marriage?

 

Outside of the church structure, yes. Absolutely. The government shouldn't have the right to decide anyone's morality. We have ceded enough freedom to our government in the last 100 years. I see no convincing reason why this one. Even if you believe it is wrong as a Christian, (which I am not totally convinced of) I believe it is pretty clear that we are not to serve as arbiters and judges of morality. There is only one judge.

[southsider2k5]

You should. That's part of the problem.

 

Here.

 

I'll equate it.

 

Mitt Romney is a reprehenisble asshole for flipflopping on abortion to shake down people just for that reason. So, if *I* believe that abortion is murder, I'm supposed to rush right out and love me some Mitt? WOO HOO. Not. He's a douchebag, for the same reason.

 

Mow, if he had that same conviction and wasn't trying to shake down money and be a whorebag, I might be more apt to believe him.

 

Agree with this 100%.

[southsider2k5]

Frankly, yes.

 

I will not hold it against people if they admit they were wrong for being a bigot in the past.

 

I hold it against them for continuing to be one.

 

The only way change happens is for people to change. A principled stand as a bigot is still a bigot.

 

I don't buy that for a second. His core beliefs have not changed. This is a calculated political move, and nothing more.

[Rex Kickass]

There is a reason I punched Ron Paul the other day despite there being no reason to do so.

 

You punched Ron Paul? This has to be even better than my Barney Frank story!

[southsider2k5]

You punched Ron Paul? This has to be even better than my Barney Frank story!

 

Your Barney Frank story dumps all.

[Rex Kickass]

Your Barney Frank story dumps all.

I think you meant to say "trumps" but the typo is oddly appropriate.

[StrangeSox]

Outside of the church structure, yes. Absolutely. The government shouldn't have the right to decide anyone's morality. We have ceded enough freedom to our government in the last 100 years. I see no convincing reason why this one. Even if you believe it is wrong as a Christian, (which I am not totally convinced of) I believe it is pretty clear that we are not to serve as arbiters and judges of morality. There is only one judge.

:internet high-five:

[Steve9347]

Kap,

 

You by far are my favorite poster.

 

You are really the only person who is either 1) so hilarious that you realize how hypocritical your poster persona is in an attempt to convince us with opposite thought or 2) you are so unreasonable that you cant even see the nonsense of the argument.

 

Usually people start to crack and give up, but you just keep on chugging as if your argument actually has merit, which is why you basically ignore every post except a few where you can change the subject.

 

"Youre sniping, no youre sniping, no one ever responds to my posts, they always just take them out of context, no you do that, no I dont you do."

 

Thats basically all you post. You still havent even said whether you support gay rights or not, and youve posted what 20-50 times? How is that even possible.

Yeah, Kap is trying to be our board's Stephen Colbert - overly ridiculous as a joke.

 

At least. We hope.

[Rex Kickass]

Frank Rich on the Obama flip-flop.

 

And so, Obama has finally finished evolving on same-sex marriage.

And about time! I, for one, never understood the point of saying you were “evolving” when many of the voters you were pandering to don’t even believe in evolution.

 

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/05/frank...as-evolved.html