The Democrat Thread

[NorthSideSox72]

But you and others were trying to make the case that it's just a couple of bad apples in the crowd, a negligible amount. It's clear that a majority of Tea Partiers feel this way.

I made no such claim, at all. I said it was significant, and a noticeable stripe in that crowd that sets it apart... but that it is not all, or most, nor is the rest of the citizenry near zero with the same feelings.

 

[BigSqwert]

I made no such claim, at all. I said it was significant, and a noticeable stripe in that crowd that sets it apart... but that it is not all, or most, nor is the rest of the citizenry near zero with the same feelings.

 

A majority is 'most'.

[NorthSideSox72]

A majority is 'most'.

First, no, it isn't.

 

Second, I don't think it is a majority OR most.

 

[StrangeSox]

First, no, it isn't.

 

ma·jor·i·ty

(m-jôr-t, -jr-)

n. pl. ma·jor·i·ties

1. The greater number or part; a number more than half of the total.

 

 

(mst)

adj. Superlative of many, much.

1.

a. Greatest in number: won the most votes.

b. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion.

 

Second, I don't think it is a majority OR most.

 

What gives you reason to reject the Brookings/PRRI study that shows that is is indeed a majority, and a 2/3's majority for "Islam is at odds with American values"

Edited September 13, 2011 by StrangeSox

[NorthSideSox72]

ma·jor·i·ty

(m-jôr-t, -jr-)

n. pl. ma·jor·i·ties

1. The greater number or part; a number more than half of the total.

 

 

(mst)

adj. Superlative of many, much.

1.

a. Greatest in number: won the most votes.

b. Greatest in amount, extent, or degree: has the most compassion.

 

 

 

What gives you reason to reject the Brookings/PRRI study that shows that is is indeed a majority, and a 2/3's majority for "Islam is at odds with American values"

 

First, "most" as you described it is comparitive, as in, most compared to others. I was saying most as a percentage, which I would take to mean most, as in, say 80% or more.

 

Second, you have made yet another unfounded leap here, from picking one question in a survey that is only somewhat related, and assuming that because two thirds of respondants on that one related but not direct question one way, that somehow means they hate Islam. I object.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

Sure, thinking their religion is at odds with American values has nothing to do with liking that group or not.

 

Liberal values are at odds with conservative values that I agree with. So we disagree. There's no "hate" element there. I don't "hate" you or "dislike" you because you think differently.

[StrangeSox]

First, "most" as you described it is comparitive, as in, most compared to others. I was saying most as a percentage, which I would take to mean most, as in, say 80% or more.

 

Most and majority are synonyms. You've invented a non-standard definition here.

 

Second, you have made yet another unfounded leap here, from picking one question in a survey that is only somewhat related, and assuming that because two thirds of respondants on that one related but not direct question one way, that somehow means they hate Islam. I object.

 

Yes, it's such an unfounded leap to assume that people who believe Islam is at odds with American values hate Islam, especially when said group is also likely to be highly nationalistic.

 

People shy away from hate, fine, can we go with "have an intense disliking and irrational fear of" Muslims?

[StrangeSox]

Liberal values are at odds with conservative values that I agree with. So we disagree. There's no "hate" element there. I don't "hate" you or "dislike" you because you think differently.

 

A group that tends to strong nationalism and wears its patriotism on its sleeve feels another group is at odds with American values. How does that not imply that they dislike that group?

[Jenksismyhero]

A group that tends to strong nationalism and wears its patriotism on its sleeve feels another group is at odds with American values. How does that not imply that they dislike that group?

 

Where did like/hate get into this discussion? Have you never vehemently disagreed with someone without disliking/hating them?

[StrangeSox]

Where did like/hate get into this discussion? Have you never vehemently disagreed with someone without disliking/hating them?

 

I think BS brought it in?

 

anyway we're not talking about someone, we're talking about large groups or ideologies.

 

How can a highly nationalistic person view a group as un-American and not dislike them?

[StrangeSox]

If you look at Page 29 of the report linked earlier, you'll see a graph "% with a favorable opinion of Muslims" broken down three ways, R-D, con-lib, and Tea Party (agree/disagree)

 

roughly, the numbers appear to be:

R: 45% D: 70%

Con: 48% Lib: 73%

Tea Party: 40% approve/ 60% disapprove

 

So again a pretty strong majority have an unfavorable opinion of Muslims.

 

[Jenksismyhero]

If you look at Page 29 of the report linked earlier, you'll see a graph "% with a favorable opinion of Muslims" broken down three ways, R-D, con-lib, and Tea Party (agree/disagree)

 

roughly, the numbers appear to be:

R: 45% D: 70%

Con: 48% Lib: 73%

Tea Party: 40% approve/ 60% disapprove

 

So again a pretty strong majority have an unfavorable opinion of Muslims.

 

Well, hate and "unfavorable opinion" are two different things. And really a question like that just elicits an "Americans are number one, everyone else isn't" kind of answer. That doesn't mean they hate them and wish ill upon them.

 

Making this kind of leap just solidifies the liberals attempt to make Tea Party members a bunch of dumb racist rednecks. Totally unfair and unfounded.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Jenksismybitch

[CrimsonWeltall]

Making this kind of leap just solidifies the liberals attempt to make Tea Party members a bunch of dumb racist rednecks. Totally unfair and unfounded.

 

54% of them believe the profoundly stupid statement that American Muslims want to enact Sharia law. There seems to be some foundation for the negative stereotype.

[StrangeSox]

Well, hate and "unfavorable opinion" are two different things. And really a question like that just elicits an "Americans are number one, everyone else isn't" kind of answer. That doesn't mean they hate them and wish ill upon them.

 

Well you've explicitly made Muslims an "other" or "out" group now from Americans, so I think that reinforces the point.

 

Making this kind of leap just solidifies the liberals attempt to make Tea Party members a bunch of dumb racist rednecks. Totally unfair and unfounded.

 

Again, what leap?

 

They think they're un-American.

They think they're actively trying to impose fundamentalist religious law.

They think that they are not an important part of American religious background.

They're opposed to the "ground zero mosque"

They have an unfavorable opinion of Islam

They're uncomfortable with Muslims teaching elementary school, praying in airports or having a mosque near their home.

 

But none of this amounts to disliking Muslims. Ok.

[southsider2k5]

Well you've explicitly made Muslims an "other" or "out" group now from Americans, so I think that reinforces the point.

 

 

 

Again, what leap?

 

They think they're un-American.

They think they're actively trying to impose fundamentalist religious law.

They think that they are not an important part of American religious background.

They're opposed to the "ground zero mosque"

They have an unfavorable opinion of Islam

They're uncomfortable with Muslims teaching elementary school, praying in airports or having a mosque near their home.

 

But none of this amounts to disliking Muslims. Ok.

 

And again, the sad part is that a sizable portion of the Democrats surveyed agree. But that gets lost in the torches and pitchforks for lynching the Tea Party.

[StrangeSox]

And again, the sad part is that a sizable portion of the Democrats surveyed agree. But that gets lost in the torches and pitchforks for lynching the Tea Party.

 

I already agreed that it was sad to see a decent majority of Democrats sharing those views. That doesn't lessen the support for the narrative that the tea party has strong prejudicial resentment politics at its core.

[Jenksismyhero]

Well you've explicitly made Muslims an "other" or "out" group now from Americans, so I think that reinforces the point.

 

 

 

Again, what leap?

 

They think they're un-American.

They think they're actively trying to impose fundamentalist religious law.

They think that they are not an important part of American religious background.

They're opposed to the "ground zero mosque"

They have an unfavorable opinion of Islam

They're uncomfortable with Muslims teaching elementary school, praying in airports or having a mosque near their home.

 

But none of this amounts to disliking Muslims. Ok.

 

Again with the "They" crap.

[southsider2k5]

I already agreed that it was sad to see a decent majority of Democrats sharing those views. That doesn't lessen the support for the narrative that the tea party has strong prejudicial resentment politics at its core.

 

It doesn't excuse it, but it does mean it is much more mainstream than it is being painted as. In the respect you are talking about, that means the Democrats have strong prejudicial resentment politics at their core as well.

[StrangeSox]

Again with the "They" crap.

 

"They"=the majority of tea party respondents to poll questions, not every single individual tea party supporter.

 

Can you explain how those bullet points can be true but somehow still doesn't lead to the conclusion that "the majority of tea party respondents to poll questions" dislike Islam?

[StrangeSox]

It doesn't excuse it, but it does mean it is much more mainstream than it is being painted as. In the respect you are talking about, that means the Democrats have strong prejudicial resentment politics at their core as well.

 

Not really, since 1) it represents a minority of Democrats and 2) it isn't shaping much of their politics and policies.

[southsider2k5]

Not really, since 1) it represents a minority of Democrats and 2) it isn't shaping much of their politics and policies.

 

If a third of your party believes something, it doesn't shape its politics? Interesting. How much of the Republican Party do you think the Tea Party makes up?

[Texsox]

Liberal values are at odds with conservative values that I agree with. So we disagree. There's no "hate" element there. I don't "hate" you or "dislike" you because you think differently.

 

 

I don't believe the values are at odds at all. What is at odds are the routes to achieve those values. Liberals believe, for the most part that we achieve those goals best by working together, and the one institution we have that is all of us is the government. So liberals like to make things better through the government. Conservatives share many of the same values, but they would like private enterprise and charities (volunteers) to help that route.

 

Security for our future?

Help starving kids?

Help poor people?

Help people get an education?

Allowing sick people to see a doctor or surgeon

 

The values are the same, the route is different.

[StrangeSox]

If a third of your party believes something, it doesn't shape its politics? Interesting.

 

The democrats haven't really had a bunch of anti-Muslim politics come up lately, no.

 

How much of the Republican Party do you think the Tea Party makes up?

 

Off hand, 25%? But its sort of irrelevant since I'm talking specifically about the tea party.

[southsider2k5]

The democrats haven't really had a bunch of anti-Muslim politics come up lately, no.

 

 

 

Off hand, 25%? But its sort of irrelevant since I'm talking specifically about the tea party.

 

So your basis is being made off of almost the exact same percentages of make up of the Republican Party, as hold "anti-Muslim" feelings in the Democratic Party. But only one of those can influence policy? Nope, can't buy that one.

[Jenksismyhero]

"They"=the majority of tea party respondents to poll questions, not every single individual tea party supporter.

 

Can you explain how those bullet points can be true but somehow still doesn't lead to the conclusion that "the majority of tea party respondents to poll questions" dislike Islam?

 

I view those as disagreements in religious belief or practice, not hate towards individuals.