PIB, Gwynn most overrated player of your generation? Raines was better?

 

lol, I'm being trolled right

First, the Big Hurt is in first ballot without question. His numbers compare with the best hitters of all time. And I'v said it before and I'll say it again. The old dinosaurs voting love the made up bullcrap like "feared hitter" and who was more feared than Frank in the 90's? Back to back MVP's (just go look at his OBP and slugging in those years and cry because you wish he was still around). He hit 500 home runs. Tons of walks, homeruns, RBI's, and for his speed had a great batting average. Basically, if you think the Big Hurt will not make the HOF first ballot for reasons athough true (media, injuries) then can't you say the same about Griffey (missed tons of games due to not being able to stay healthy)? In no way am I arguing the point, but I'm just saying...

 

Second, Gwynn might be one of the most overrated players of my generation. Still HOF worthy, but Tim Raines was better.

 

Third, I don't think if Bonds or Clemens gets in it paves the way for Sosa and Palmero (I think McGwire should be in FWIW). I don't think Sosa was GREAT (not good, GREAT) for that long. Were talking about a guy who MAYBE for 3 years you could say top 5 player (and this is before defense was an emphasis). Palmero is along the same lines for me. Good, steady career. No high peaks, but someone who was never a top 5 player for a few years in row. Certinly he wasn't even the best first baseman of his era (I'll take the Big Hurt and Bagwell along with Thome.

 

No black man sounds more white than Tony Gywnn ever. This is fact. But he was an eight, I repeat, EIGHT time batting champion who has a career BA of .338 over 20 f***ing seasons. You must be crazy.

 

No black man sounds more white than Tony Gywnn ever. This is fact. But he was an eight, I repeat, EIGHT time batting champion who has a career BA of .338 over 20 f***ing seasons. You must be crazy.

 

Paint It Black isn't a fool, but that post was sure moronic. To insist that Gwynn is the most overrated player of his time is bad enough, but to go on and say that a player who batted more than 40 points lower in his career is better...

 

Go look at the highest lifetime averages. Nobody above Tony Gwynn is even remotely recent.

 

Add to that the fact that he has one of the greatest posters I've ever seen, and you have yourself one of the best hitters of all time.

 

Edited January 7, 201115 yr by Milkman delivers

Add to that the fact that he has one of the greatest posters I've ever seen, and you have yourself one of the best hitters of all time.

 

Wow. That poster is awesome!

The whole steroids thing coming out when it did helped Frank a lot. A few years ago I would have said that he wasn't a first ballot guy(I personally believe he is one but I don't think he would have gotten the votes on his first year) but with how hard the voters have come down on roiders or even just guys who they believe to be roiders, I really think that vaults Thomas' status and makes him a first ballot guy.

 

If the league wasn't full of cheaters, Franks numbers would have blown the field away.

Paint It Black isn't a fool, but that post was sure moronic. To insist that Gwynn is the most overrated player of his time is bad enough, but to go on and say that a player who batted more than 40 points lower in his career is better...

 

Go look at the highest lifetime averages. Nobody above Tony Gwynn is even remotely recent.

 

Add to that the fact that he has one of the greatest posters I've ever seen, and you have yourself one of the best hitters of all time.

 

 

Those were a special few years with pure hitters like Gwynn and Boggs around.

Paint It Black isn't a fool, but that post was sure moronic. To insist that Gwynn is the most overrated player of his time is bad enough, but to go on and say that a player who batted more than 40 points lower in his career is better...

 

Go look at the highest lifetime averages. Nobody above Tony Gwynn is even remotely recent.

 

Add to that the fact that he has one of the greatest posters I've ever seen, and you have yourself one of the best hitters of all time.

 

 

If TG played for in NY, he'd be a cultural icon in this country.

Wow. That poster is awesome!

 

Isn't it? I own it.

If TG played for in NY, he'd be a cultural icon in this country.

 

He's everything that was right in baseball during the 80's and 90's.

I don't mind tossing this in, knowing some people will scream, but haviong spent so much time outside Chicago, there are waaaaay too many people who believe Thomas was on PEDs as well. Just because of his size, and many remember him tearing a bicep. But that is the average, doesn't know s***, baseball fan outside Chicago. I assume that 92% of the baseball writers are smarter than that.

No black man sounds more white than Tony Gywnn ever. This is fact. But he was an eight, I repeat, EIGHT time batting champion who has a career BA of .338 over 20 f***ing seasons. You must be crazy.

 

But his lifetime slugging % is only .459 because hit hit a lot of singles. Can he still be considered a great hitter?

 

Singles are SEXY!!!

Those were a special few years with pure hitters like Gwynn and Boggs around.

 

Agreed.

 

I remember when Nellie Fox was inducted into the HOF, Reggie Jackson said that "they let someone in the HOF who doesn't belong. Fox's widow said "yes, it was a guy who struck out more than 2500 times."

I don't mind tossing this in, knowing some people will scream, but haviong spent so much time outside Chicago, there are waaaaay too many people who believe Thomas was on PEDs as well. Just because of his size, and many remember him tearing a bicep. But that is the average, doesn't know s***, baseball fan outside Chicago. I assume that 92% of the baseball writers are smarter than that.

We don't actually "know" what Frank did or didn't do regarding PEDs. I don't think he did, but nothing would surprise me.

But his lifetime slugging % is only .459 because hit hit a lot of singles. Can he still be considered a great hitter?

 

Singles are SEXY!!!

 

We're not talking JP here. Even his singles suck.

Edited January 7, 201115 yr by Jordan4life

I don't mind tossing this in, knowing some people will scream, but haviong spent so much time outside Chicago, there are waaaaay too many people who believe Thomas was on PEDs as well. Just because of his size, and many remember him tearing a bicep. But that is the average, doesn't know s***, baseball fan outside Chicago. I assume that 92% of the baseball writers are smarter than that.

 

Haha, did you see my post? I said the exact same thing.

I think Frank is a sure fire HOF, but I was wondering what his first ballot chances were. Edgar Martinez received 32.9% of the votes after 36% his first year. I think penalized because he was primarily a DH. A career line of .312/.418/.515 with 7 allstar 5 silver slugger, 2 batting titles is not bad. Frank was .301/.419/.555 with 2 MVP four other top 5 and 3 more top ten, 1 batting title and 500+ homers, 5 all star, 4 silver slugger.

 

I am in no way saying EM is equal to Thomas, I am only tossing this out to get opinions on how primary DH are seen by the voters. Maybe Franks .300,20+ hr, 100 runs walks rbis for seven first years trumps all and gets him in on first ballot?

 

I don't think that Edgar Martinez is a good barometer for Frank's first-year HOF vote percentage. Frank was much more dominant in his prime (two MVPs) and hit with a lot more power. 'Gar's 309 career HRs over 18 years aren't going to get him into the HOF, especially when he didn't have a Tony Gwynn-like batting average or do anything defensively. It's amazing that he was able to hit the ball so well with his eye disorder, and everything that I've heard about his suggests that he's a great guy. But I'm not even sure that he makes the Hall.

 

Haha, did you see my post? I said the exact same thing.

 

Sorry, when I edited I somehow dropped the first line which read

 

"Seconding Milkman"

Sorry, when I edited I somehow dropped the first line which read

 

"Seconding Milkman"

 

LOL, I just figured you hadn't read the thread and just threw in your opinion. No need to apologize, it's not like it bothered me.

Frank should walk right into the HOF.

Being a first ballot Hall Of Famer is rare and seems reserved for those "perfect" players. Guys like Cal Ripken Jr., and Tony Gwynn were the obvious first ballot hall of famers of recent memory. They had sparkling personalities and truly represented the game during their time with no connection to any PED, drugs or cheating. I was a little surprised that a strange personality who played for nine different teams like Rickey Henderson got in on his first ballot in 2009, but his skill set was beyond what anyone had ever seen.

 

Frank's numbers and dominance are staggering, he carried teams all throughout the 90's and into the 2000's. But he was never a media darling which could hold him back from getting that first ballot call.

 

The 2014 ballot will also be the first for Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine who seem to be clearer "first ballot" personalities. 1999 is the only time that three players were voted in on their first ballot (George Brett, Robin Yount, Nolan Ryan) so it's not unprecedented, but also unlikely. 2014 will also be the second ballot for potential HOFers Mike Piazza, Roger Clemens, and Barry Bonds if none get in on their first vote. If Clemens and Bonds get in, that opens the door for a lot of the steroid era guys (McGwire, Sosa, Palmero, etc.) to get in the way of Frank, who appears to have a cleaner record.

 

2015 is a little softer on the new additions to the ballot, with only Randy Johnson really being a shoe in. John Smoltz, Gary Sheffield and Pedro Martinez are really the only other realistic candidates who come up for vote in 2015. It wouldn't shock me if Frank had to wait until his second year to get in.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see him make it on the first ballot, but part of me expects him to have to wait a year or two.

Great post.

 

Maddux is in first ballot period, and I think Glavine and Thomas will battle just below that level. And with the general questions out there about big hitters in that era, I think that's enough to get Glavine in but Thomas out in their first ballots. Then Thomas goes in 2nd year.

 

Is Konerko a HOF'er? He needs at least a few more strong seasons, but he's currently:

 

365 HRs, 1861 hits, 1156 RBIs, .280 avg

 

Or how about...

 

Ordonez -- 289 HRs, 2072 hits, 1204 RBIs, .312 avg

Carlos Lee -- 331 HRs, 1967 hits, 1192 RBIs, .287 avg

Edited January 10, 201115 yr by bighurt574

Is Konerko a HOF'er? He needs at least a few more strong seasons, but he's currently:

 

365 HRs, 1861 hits, 1156 RBIs, .280 avg

 

Or how about...

 

Ordonez -- 289 HRs, 2072 hits, 1204 RBIs, .312 avg

Carlos Lee -- 331 HRs, 1967 hits, 1192 RBIs, .287 avg

Especially considering the eras that they played through, no.

 

I don't know if I'd think any of them were HOF-ers if they got to 500.

Is Konerko a HOF'er? He needs at least a few more strong seasons, but he's currently:

 

365 HRs, 1861 hits, 1156 RBIs, .280 avg

 

Or how about...

 

Ordonez -- 289 HRs, 2072 hits, 1204 RBIs, .312 avg

Carlos Lee -- 331 HRs, 1967 hits, 1192 RBIs, .287 avg

 

no to all three at this point.

They're obviously all out if their careers ended today. Konerko or Ordonez could make it interesting with a strong late-career surge (which are an increasing rarity with PED testing), say 3+ more productive seasons.

They're obviously all out if their careers ended today. Konerko or Ordonez could make it interesting with a strong late-career surge (which are an increasing rarity with PED testing), say 3+ more productive seasons.

 

I think Maggio has the best chance, but he has to get to 3000 hits in all likelihood.