Ryan Franklin released by St. Louis. Before we start the "Coop can fix 'em" chants, let's remember that the best pitching coach in the league got what he could out of his garbage arm, and I think he's done if Duncan can do no more.

Ryan Franklin released by St. Louis. Before we start the "Coop can fix 'em" chants, let's remember that the best pitching coach in the league got what he could out of his garbage arm, and I think he's done if Duncan can do no more.

Is it generally accepted that Duncan is the best coach in the league? I'm not saying he's not excellent, I'm asking if there's consensus that he's the clear and away #1.

Is it generally accepted that Duncan is the best coach in the league? I'm not saying he's not excellent, I'm asking if there's consensus that he's the clear and away #1.

 

Kyle Lohse. The end. They've gotten two above league-average seasons (including this year) and another right around league-average season out of him in three of the last four years. And he sucks. I say this with supreme confidence.

Kyle Lohse. The end. They've gotten two above league-average seasons (including this year) and another right around league-average season out of him in three of the last four years. And he sucks. I say this with supreme confidence.

Phil Humber, Gavin Floyd, Matt Thornton, Jose Contreras, Esteban Loaiza isn't a good comeback, just from the example I'm most familiar with?

Phil Humber, Gavin Floyd, Matt Thornton, Jose Contreras, Esteban Loaiza isn't a good comeback, just from the example I'm most familiar with?

 

It is. Then I can throw Westbrook, Carpenter (he wasn't s*** before he was a Cardinal), Weaver ('06 playoffs say hello), Franklin (though that didn't last), Jeff Suppan and Jason Marquis. That's just off the top of my head. I don't think there's a consensus, as we're talking pitching coaches here. But nobody sounds silly if they declare Duncan the best.

I don't think there's a consensus, as we're talking pitching coaches here. But nobody sounds silly if they declare Duncan the best.

That's all I was asking. I certainly am not going to tell someone they're wrong if they say Duncan is the best, but I was just asking if there was an overwhelming consensus that I was unaware of. Your answer is no. He's clearly among the best at the very worst.

That's all I was asking. I certainly am not going to tell someone they're wrong if they say Duncan is the best, but I was just asking if there was an overwhelming consensus that I was unaware of. Your answer is no. He's clearly among the best at the very worst.

 

Well if you put a gun to my head, I'd say Duncan was the best. But I'm not going to sit here and act like I know about all 30 teams' pitching coaches. I couldn't name half of them. I'll just say that I have no problem with Don Cooper. He's probably the one guy from the coaching staff I want to see stick around.

It is. Then I can throw Westbrook, Carpenter (he wasn't s*** before he was a Cardinal), Weaver ('06 playoffs say hello), Franklin (though that didn't last), Jeff Suppan and Jason Marquis. That's just off the top of my head. I don't think there's a consensus, as we're talking pitching coaches here. But nobody sounds silly if they declare Duncan the best.

 

i will give you weaver, lohse, suppan and franklin last season, but westbrook wasnt anything special last season when he came over, and his era is over 5 now. carpenter was a highly regarded prospect with the blue jays he just had arm problems, just like he has had with the cardinals. and jason marqius was exactly what he always was, a hot starter that faded so much in the second half that larussa benched him in the playoffs during their world series run.

 

i think a big differenxe in the players you mentioned and the players coop rehabilitated is that most of coops projects have maintained their success, and half of duncans guys fell off the next season

i will give you weaver, lohse, suppan and franklin last season, but westbrook wasnt anything special last season when he came over, and his era is over 5 now. carpenter was a highly regarded prospect with the blue jays he just had arm problems, just like he has had with the cardinals. and jason marqius was exactly what he always was, a hot starter that faded so much in the second half that larussa benched him in the playoffs during their world series run.

 

i think a big differenxe in the players you mentioned and the players coop rehabilitated is that most of coops projects have maintained their success, and half of duncans guys fell off the next season

Fell off the next season...unlike Loaiza and Contreras.

Fell off the next season...unlike Loaiza and Contreras.

 

loaiza pitched effectively for 5 more years as a starter, and contreras was pretty amazing until injuries and age knocked him back, but he has been a pretty good reliecer for the phillies when healthy.

 

franklin looks done, weaver became an overpaid dodger reliever, marquis never did anything worth noting, suppan couldnt get his era below 7.

loaiza pitched effectively for 5 more years as a starter, and contreras was pretty amazing until injuries and age knocked him back, but he has been a pretty good reliecer for the phillies when healthy.

 

franklin looks done, weaver became an overpaid dodger reliever, marquis never did anything worth noting, suppan couldnt get his era below 7.

 

I thought Loaiza was terrible after his magical season with the Sox? You know how much I despise Suppan though. One thing Duncan is great at is getting his pitchers to use the sinker. Pineiro was amazing with the Cards.

I thought Loaiza was terrible after his magical season with the Sox? You know how much I despise Suppan though. One thing Duncan is great at is getting his pitchers to use the sinker. Pineiro was amazing with the Cards.

 

i did too, but i looked at his baseball reference page, and it wasnt nearly as bad as i thought it would be. aside from his last season numbers, he was a effective 5th starter.

i did too, but i looked at his baseball reference page, and it wasnt nearly as bad as i thought it would be. aside from his last season numbers, he was a effective 5th starter.

 

Hasn't Marquis been better?

last year he was pretty bad. the cubs left him off the postseason roster just like the cardinals did.

 

he just has bad second halves, always has

Jose Reyes is putting up some crazy stats this year.

Jose Reyes is putting up some crazy stats this year.

 

He's a legitimate MVP candidate. I thought he was done as far as being an elite player. But god damn. He's f***ing cold. Outside of Votto and Kemp, who's more deserving ( I concede there's probably multiple players I'm forgetting about)?

 

Throw Prince in there as well.

Edited June 30, 201114 yr by Jordan4life

He's on pace for 30 triples.

Is it generally accepted that Duncan is the best coach in the league? I'm not saying he's not excellent, I'm asking if there's consensus that he's the clear and away #1.

 

I'm not sure if it's an agreed upon consensus that he is #1, but IMO the results speak for themselves. The pitching staff that won the 2006 WS alone puts him up there.

 

In comparing Duncan to Cooper, I tend to see one big difference. Cooper has fixed a lot of pitchers who had the talent, just needed help figuring it out. Many of the pitchers Duncan helped have garbage arms, and somehow he teaches them how to not only survive, but sometimes also excel in the majors.

I'm not sure if it's an agreed upon consensus that he is #1, but IMO the results speak for themselves. The pitching staff that won the 2006 WS alone puts him up there.

 

In comparing Duncan to Cooper, I tend to see one big difference. Cooper has fixed a lot of pitchers who had the talent, just needed help figuring it out. Many of the pitchers Duncan helped have garbage arms, and somehow he teaches them how to not only survive, but sometimes also excel in the majors.

 

Agreed, and I don't think there's a question both guys are two of the best in the game.

 

Agreed, and I don't think there's a question both guys are two of the best in the game.

If we think about it, we can probably come up with other names though. Whoever is coaching in San Fran, Tampa, LAA, maybe Oakland and Seattle (although it's hard to figure out the park effects there), Texas...there's a number of pitching coaches who have regularly had staffs that step up big time, in surprising ways, in the last few years.

If we think about it, we can probably come up with other names though. Whoever is coaching in San Fran, Tampa, LAA, maybe Oakland and Seattle (although it's hard to figure out the park effects there), Texas...there's a number of pitching coaches who have regularly had staffs that step up big time, in surprising ways, in the last few years.

 

I'm sure there are several outstanding pitching coaches that I have never heard of, but Duncan is the one who seems to keep popping up from year to year with success. Of the teams you mentioned though, SF, Tampa, & Oakland seem to be pretty talented in general, pitching coach or no pitching coach. I guess the lack of perceived "talent" in STL is what always impresses me about Duncan's success.

I'm sure there are several outstanding pitching coaches that I have never heard of, but Duncan is the one who seems to keep popping up from year to year with success. Of the teams you mentioned though, SF, Tampa, & Oakland seem to be pretty talented in general, pitching coach or no pitching coach. I guess the lack of perceived "talent" in STL is what always impresses me about Duncan's success.

The comeback on that of course is "Adam Wainright and Chris Carpenter".

 

The phrase "Supremely talented" fits those guys well, which is why this is an interesting topic.

 

Of course, was Leo Mazzone frowned on all that much because of Smoltz/Maddux/Glavine/Avery/Millwood/Neagle being talented?

If we think about it, we can probably come up with other names though. Whoever is coaching in San Fran, Tampa, LAA, maybe Oakland and Seattle (although it's hard to figure out the park effects there), Texas...there's a number of pitching coaches who have regularly had staffs that step up big time, in surprising ways, in the last few years.

 

Mike Maddux is on that list now for sure.

The comeback on that of course is "Adam Wainright and Chris Carpenter".

 

The phrase "Supremely talented" fits those guys well, which is why this is an interesting topic.

 

Of course, was Leo Mazzone frowned on all that much because of Smoltz/Maddux/Glavine/Avery/Millwood/Neagle being talented?

 

Yeah, good point, that buckling curveball to freeze Carlos Beltran & win the NLCS was 100% Wainright's talent.

 

Leo Mazzone did get hired by Baltimore to be a savior and that didn't go very well either.

Leo Mazzone did get hired by Baltimore to be a savior and that didn't go very well either.

Which brings up the question...what would happen to a guy like Cooper or Duncan, etc., if they went somewhere else? Mike Maddux had a good year or two to start off in Milwaukee IIRC, but then his staffs started underachieving. Now he's pulling Ogando's out of his hat in Texas.