Balta1701 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 02:14 PM) Guillen batted Dunn 4th and Rios 5th into August. A lot of this is on KW, without question. A lot of it is on Ozzie as well. They have behaved like 2 little kids trying to become JR's favorite. Its time for adults to make the White Sox decisions. That means getting rid of both. Guillen batted Rios 4th until the end of August. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 12:21 PM) Pecota also hates Mark Buehrle because he doesn't strike enough people out and projected a big falloff from Konerko. I'm not a PECOTA fan, but It was laughable that people thought this was a 90-win team before the season started. I had them at .500 too and was right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 02:19 PM) I'm not a PECOTA fan, but It was laughable that people thought this was a 90-win team before the season started. I had them at .500 too and was right. You realize how few things it would take for this to be a 90 win team? A solid full season from John Danks A normal 30 HR season from Adam Dunn A decent season with the Bats from Beckham A decent season with the bats from Rios A decent season by Jake Peavy Juan Pierre being able to field and occasionally steal a base If just 2 of those things had happened, this team would be in first place right now and on pace for 90. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 01:19 PM) I'm not a PECOTA fan, but It was laughable that people thought this was a 90-win team before the season started. I had them at .500 too and was right. So Ozzie is just doing an average job? He has .500 talent and they are playing .500, correct? Would they be .500 in the AL East or AL West? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 01:20 PM) You realize how few things it would take for this to be a 90 win team? A solid full season from John Danks A normal 30 HR season from Adam Dunn A decent season with the Bats from Beckham A decent season with the bats from Rios A decent season by Jake Peavy Juan Pierre being able to field and occasionally steal a base If just 2 of those things had happened, this team would be in first place right now and on pace for 90. With an MVP season from Konerko, AJ hitting like he is, Buehrle and Humber . . . Lot's of stuff for this group to be a 90-win team. Too many folks wore rose colored glasses before the season started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 01:30 PM) So Ozzie is just doing an average job? He has .500 talent and they are playing .500, correct? Would they be .500 in the AL East or AL West? Yes, Guillen is doing an average job and he needs to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 01:30 PM) With an MVP season from Konerko, AJ hitting like he is, Buehrle and Humber . . . Lot's of stuff for this group to be a 90-win team. Too many folks wore rose colored glasses before the season started. Not really. The division sucks. You get 18 games against Cleveland, KC, Minnesota and Detroit. Always get 6 vs. the Cubs in interleague. .500 talent should mean several games over .500 with the schedule they play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 02:30 PM) With an MVP season from Konerko, AJ hitting like he is, Buehrle and Humber . . . Lot's of stuff for this group to be a 90-win team. Too many folks wore rose colored glasses before the season started. AJ really hasn't been that incredible of a hitter. His average is up but his power numbers are down, and he's now been hurt. Castro's been hurt too. This team could have been a 90 win team with a large margin of error. Almost everything has gone wrong from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 01:09 PM) 1.) The Manuel teams were largely Schueler creations. 2.) Add Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, David Wells, Roberto Alomar, Ken Griffey, JR. to Peavy, Dunn, Rios, and Swisher. Only Wells and Swisher did anything after leaving the Sox. Seems like Williams has a knack MLB veterans who are past their useful life. Outside of Ritchie, which one of those players had a bad history before coming to the White Sox? The Alomar and Griffey acquisitions were useless, but it's not like they gave up anything useful. Plus, it's extremely hard to think a veteran is past his useful life when they're still in their prime (Rios, Swisher, Koch). It's an unpredictable game. I don't think you can even blame Dunn on KW, because only a few people thought Dunn was going to be a waste of money and even then, they didn't think he'd be this bad. So that signing is completely hindsight. Plus, for every one of those stupid moves he made, you have Matt Thornton, John Danks, Carlos Quentin, Gavin Floyd, Sergio Santos, etc. I personally don't think KW is a good GM, but he's a serviceable one. I'd love for somebody better to take over, but pinning the past few seasons all on Kenny when he was partially blocked by his manager in acquiring or getting rid of players is unfair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macsandz Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 01:20 PM) You realize how few things it would take for this to be a 90 win team? A solid full season from John Danks A normal 30 HR season from Adam Dunn A decent season with the Bats from Beckham A decent season with the bats from Rios A decent season by Jake Peavy Juan Pierre being able to field and occasionally steal a base If just 2 of those things had happened, this team would be in first place right now and on pace for 90. Which is why totally blaming KW for this atrocious season is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 01:36 PM) AJ really hasn't been that incredible of a hitter. His average is up but his power numbers are down, and he's now been hurt. Castro's been hurt too. This team could have been a 90 win team with a large margin of error. Almost everything has gone wrong from there. Lots of stuff has gone right too. Konerko, Buehrle, bullpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 12:16 PM) This team is not underachieving, PECOTA projected them to be .500. They were never good enough to win the division. PECOTA's been absolutely useless for the past few years. That system's broken. In terms of projections, the White Sox were projected to be about a 40 WAR team (by some of the better projection systems around such as ZiPS and Marcel), that equates to about 88 wins, depending on the replacement level win threshold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (chw42 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 01:40 PM) Outside of Ritchie, which one of those players had a bad history before coming to the White Sox? The Alomar and Griffey acquisitions were useless, but it's not like they gave up anything useful. Plus, it's extremely hard to think a veteran is past his useful life when they're still in their prime (Rios, Swisher, Koch). It's an unpredictable game. I don't think you can even blame Dunn on KW, because only a few people thought Dunn was going to be a waste of money and even then, they didn't think he'd be this bad. So that signing is completely hindsight. Plus, for every one of those stupid moves he made, you have Matt Thornton, John Danks, Carlos Quentin, Gavin Floyd, Sergio Santos, etc. I personally don't think KW is a good GM, but he's a serviceable one. I'd love for somebody better to take over, but pinning the past few seasons all on Kenny when he was partially blocked by his manager in acquiring or getting rid of players is unfair. Williams strength as a GM is finding players before they have success in the majors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 02:41 PM) Lots of stuff has gone right too. Konerko, Buehrle, bullpen. Our bullpen has, IMO, underperformed as well. Thornton started off terribly, Ohman started off terribly, Sale should have started in the minors, many innings were wasted on guys like Bruney. Given where their ERA is, they have a fairly large number of blown saves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 01:14 PM) Guillen batted Dunn 4th and Rios 5th into August. A lot of this is on KW, without question. A lot of it is on Ozzie as well. They have behaved like 2 little kids trying to become JR's favorite. Its time for adults to make the White Sox decisions. That means getting rid of both. How has KW behaved like a little kid here? Sure you can criticize him for making a mistake in picking up Dunn, Rios and Peavy. But he gave Ozzie the go ahead to play whomever he thinks can produce the best, contracts and salary be damned. The last time I remember KW saying anything publicly about Ozzie or his coaches was a month or two ago when he said he thought they were doing a good job. Even I got pissed off at KW that time. But KW has been silent in all this latest BS with Ozzie's contract and Cowley's personal attacks. If anyone has been acting like an adult in this latest round of BS, it's KW. And if anyone is to blame for this dysfunctional organization, it all starts with JR and will never change as long as he owns the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 02:13 PM) How has KW behaved like a little kid here? Sure you can criticize him for making a mistake in picking up Dunn, Rios and Peavy. But he gave Ozzie the go ahead to play whomever he thinks can produce the best, contracts and salary be damned. Very BIG of KW. Without production from those three Williams' acquisitions the team was through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 02:28 PM) Very BIG of KW. Without production from those three Williams' acquisitions the team was through. It's just too bad Ozzie and his coaching staff couldn't get Dunn and Rios to perform at a level even 75% of their career norms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 02:35 PM) It's just too bad Ozzie and his coaching staff couldn't get Dunn and Rios to perform at a level even 75% of their career norms. Why are you such a staunch Williams backer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 01:35 PM) It's just too bad Ozzie and his coaching staff couldn't get Dunn and Rios to perform at a level even 75% of their career norms. The other side of the coin is these guys aren't rookies. With someone like Dunn, after 10 years does he really need a manager to get himself to perform near his career norm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (Marty34 @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 02:39 PM) Why are you such a staunch Williams backer? I'm not. It's just obvious that Ozzie and Walker are more to blame for the team's on field struggles than Williams, Ozzie Oney and Cowley are totally to blame for the public soap opera distractions in the media, and JR is to blame for operating the organization in a dysfunctional manner. Criticizing KW for trades/acquisitions he made is fair game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Side Fireworks Man Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 02:44 PM) The other side of the coin is these guys aren't rookies. With someone like Dunn, after 10 years does he really need a manager to get himself to perform near his career norm? No, but then you certainly can't blame the GM for not forseeing that Dunn would be hitting in the .160s either. And it is the coaches jobs to spot what a struggling player is doing wrong and offer help in correcting it. And if the player still can't perform his job, it's the manager's job to field a lineup that gives the team it's best chance to succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 (edited) It's just too bad Ozzie and his coaching staff couldn't get Dunn and Rios to perform at a level even 75% of their career norms. I cannot believe I have just read this sentence. To get this straight: You blame Ozzie and his staff for those two nonperforming zillionaires? Ozzie gets the blame for Mr. Whiff and arguably the laziest player in baseball? Edited September 3, 2011 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 03:49 PM) No, but then you certainly can't blame the GM for not forseeing that Dunn would be hitting in the .160s either To be fair though...as much as I agree with what you say, Dunn's numbers were down in the 2nd half last year, and that's a risk that the GM has to assess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty34 Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 02:49 PM) No, but then you certainly can't blame the GM for not forseeing that Dunn would be hitting in the .160s either. And it is the coaches jobs to spot what a struggling player is doing wrong and offer help in correcting it. And if the player still can't perform his job, it's the manager's job to field a lineup that gives the team it's best chance to succeed. What is the GM's job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 3, 2011 Share Posted September 3, 2011 QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Sep 3, 2011 -> 02:13 PM) How has KW behaved like a little kid here? Sure you can criticize him for making a mistake in picking up Dunn, Rios and Peavy. But he gave Ozzie the go ahead to play whomever he thinks can produce the best, contracts and salary be damned. The last time I remember KW saying anything publicly about Ozzie or his coaches was a month or two ago when he said he thought they were doing a good job. Even I got pissed off at KW that time. But KW has been silent in all this latest BS with Ozzie's contract and Cowley's personal attacks. If anyone has been acting like an adult in this latest round of BS, it's KW. And if anyone is to blame for this dysfunctional organization, it all starts with JR and will never change as long as he owns the team. Passive agressiveness. Said he wasn't going to bring up Viciedo because Ozzie wouldn't play him. Making comments about Beckham's swing was out of line. You discuss that stuff in house. It looked to me like KW was laying the groundwork for scapegoats for his failures. You can't doubt KW, while publicly remaining relatively silent, behind the sceen is a total ass. I'll agree, he's handled this Cowley stuff well, but for good reason. He knows his ass is on the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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