The Pet Thread

[Brian]

Krush, we getting a pic of this pup?

[iamshack]

Here are my two Danes...big one is about 15 months, little one about 5 months...

[Texsox]

It depends on what traits we are breeding for. You can accelerate things but only so much.

 

Is "ability to digest grain based foods easily" a trait we're breeding for or is that just something impacting evolution on the outskirts? I don't think of breeders pushing dogs based on what they eat very often. There might well be some species who can process grains and processed foods better than others...but you can say that about humans too.

 

It could certainly happen but you need to be directly selecting for that trait. I feel like they are selecting for things like "Quality of coat" "Behavior" "appearance" more than diet.

 

I am going to assume that the majority of those dogs are eating processed foods. Doesn't it follow then that breeders are selecting for things like "Quality of coat" "Behavior" "appearance" while on this processed diet? Wouldn't they go hand in hand?

 

Bottom line it seems as if these pets are far removed from their wild ancestors. I'm not certain how appropriate this wild model really is.

[Steve9347]

The dogs closest wild cousins do not have someone cleaning their teeth, carefully deciding what, and how much, they can eat. Yet they seem to survive.

Yeah... the dog's closest cousin hasn't been domesticated for centuries, either. The dog's closest cousin doesn't have a bowl full of food at all time's and just "decide" to eat when it wants. It f***ing hunts and then eats.

 

Apples/oranges.

[iamshack]

I am going to assume that the majority of those dogs are eating processed foods. Doesn't it follow then that breeders are selecting for things like "Quality of coat" "Behavior" "appearance" while on this processed diet? Wouldn't they go hand in hand?

 

Bottom line it seems as if these pets are far removed from their wild ancestors. I'm not certain how appropriate this wild model really is.

Ok, you're going to stack tens of thousands of years against 80 years and expect to see some sort of evolutionary change? Come on, Tex...

[RockRaines]

On the above. I'm a huge fan of crating a puppy while away, but you need to come home very frequently for potty breaks and some long walks. Puppies are essentially like having small children, your sleep and work pattern will suffer for awhile.

[Texsox]

Ok, you're going to stack tens of thousands of years against 80 years and expect to see some sort of evolutionary change? Come on, Tex...

 

 

We would also have to look at the knowledge that humans have and our ability to manufacturer pet foods. If we wish to continue to compare a dog in the wild, is modern pet food better or worse than scaveging old carcasses? Is the variety of nutrients we can pack into a single serving better or worse than the variety that a dog would have in the wild? As you mentioned, food is sometimes scarce and the animal will eat what it can. I have a hard time believing that we cannot manufacture a pet food that is equal or better than what a dog would receive in the wild.

 

Is what you are feeding your dogs close to what they would receive in the wild? The entire animal? Would they receive that bounty every day of their lives? Wouldn't feeding them an entire animal twice a week be more aligned with the wild experience?

 

Just some thougths I found interesting.

[Texsox]

Yeah... the dog's closest cousin hasn't been domesticated for centuries, either. The dog's closest cousin doesn't have a bowl full of food at all time's and just "decide" to eat when it wants. It f***ing hunts and then eats.

 

Apples/oranges.

 

Correct. The lifestyle isn't the same but the animal isn't much different, at least that seems to be the opinion here. Although with new breeds created out of seemingly nowhere, I am inclined to agree more with your point.

[RockRaines]

We would also have to look at the knowledge that humans have and our ability to manufacturer pet foods. If we wish to continue to compare a dog in the wild, is modern pet food better or worse than scaveging old carcasses? Is the variety of nutrients we can pack into a single serving better or worse than the variety that a dog would have in the wild? As you mentioned, food is sometimes scarce and the animal will eat what it can. I have a hard time believing that we cannot manufacture a pet food that is equal or better than what a dog would receive in the wild.

 

Is what you are feeding your dogs close to what they would receive in the wild? The entire animal? Would they receive that bounty every day of their lives? Wouldn't feeding them an entire animal twice a week be more aligned with the wild experience?

 

Just some thougths I found interesting.

I will point out that each dog is a different story. I have one that has been incredibly healthy happy with a great coat on the crappiest dog food you would find in Jewel.

 

My other dog requires a high protein fish-based food with almost zero additives for her to be healthy. Its very hard to generalize.

[iamshack]

We would also have to look at the knowledge that humans have and our ability to manufacturer pet foods. If we wish to continue to compare a dog in the wild, is modern pet food better or worse than scaveging old carcasses? Is the variety of nutrients we can pack into a single serving better or worse than the variety that a dog would have in the wild? As you mentioned, food is sometimes scarce and the animal will eat what it can. I have a hard time believing that we cannot manufacture a pet food that is equal or better than what a dog would receive in the wild.

 

Is what you are feeding your dogs close to what they would receive in the wild? The entire animal? Would they receive that bounty every day of their lives? Wouldn't feeding them an entire animal twice a week be more aligned with the wild experience?

 

Just some thougths I found interesting.

Tex,

We don't even understand how best to feed ourselves. You think we can outsmart nature when it comes to feeding our dogs?

 

The best approach is to feed as large a variety of good proteins as possible. That way we are most likely to cover all the nutrients dogs need. Unfortunately, this is very expensive and beyond the reach of most people for large dogs.

 

Check out a product like Darwin's versus something like what most people feed Iam's.

 

There is a huge, huge difference, because one caters to the needs of the dog, while the other caters to the needs of the dog's owner.

[Steve9347]

Tex,

We don't even understand how best to feed ourselves. You think we can outsmart nature when it comes to feeding our dogs?

 

The best approach is to feed as large a variety of good proteins as possible. That way we are most likely to cover all the nutrients dogs need. Unfortunately, this is very expensive and beyond the reach of most people for large dogs.

 

Check out a product like Darwin's versus something like what most people feed Iam's.

 

There is a huge, huge difference, because one caters to the needs of the dog, while the other caters to the needs of the dog's owner.

[Balta1701]

Tex,

We don't even understand how best to feed ourselves.

I don't believe this is true. We have plenty of good ideas on how to feed ourselves.

 

The real issue is how to do so "Cheaply". Which is also the real issue for dogs as well. We know it's not exactly good to be downing tons of high fructose corn syrup and cheeseburgers...but that's one real cheap way to get your calorie intake. Loading up dog food with processed corn may not be the best way to feed a dog...but it's a darn cheap way to do so.

[RockRaines]

Tex,

We don't even understand how best to feed ourselves. You think we can outsmart nature when it comes to feeding our dogs?

 

The best approach is to feed as large a variety of good proteins as possible. That way we are most likely to cover all the nutrients dogs need. Unfortunately, this is very expensive and beyond the reach of most people for large dogs.

 

Check out a product like Darwin's versus something like what most people feed Iam's.

 

There is a huge, huge difference, because one caters to the needs of the dog, while the other caters to the needs of the dog's owner.

Its so much trial and error on foods. ALOT of cleaning up or picking up puddles of s*** or puke.

[iamshack]

I don't believe this is true. We have plenty of good ideas on how to feed ourselves.

 

The real issue is how to do so "Cheaply". Which is also the real issue for dogs as well. We know it's not exactly good to be downing tons of high fructose corn syrup and cheeseburgers...but that's one real cheap way to get your calorie intake. Loading up dog food with processed corn may not be the best way to feed a dog...but it's a darn cheap way to do so.

Read In Defense of Food and then come back to me.

 

[Steve9347]

We don't even understand how best to feed ourselves.

Humans absolutely know what they should and should not eat for the most part. They just don't care because they are obsessed with sugar and fat and everything that's been processed to taste delicious.

 

Humans just don't care.

[Texsox]

Tex,

We don't even understand how best to feed ourselves. You think we can outsmart nature when it comes to feeding our dogs?

 

The best approach is to feed as large a variety of good proteins as possible. That way we are most likely to cover all the nutrients dogs need. Unfortunately, this is very expensive and beyond the reach of most people for large dogs.

 

Check out a product like Darwin's versus something like what most people feed Iam's.

 

There is a huge, huge difference, because one caters to the needs of the dog, while the other caters to the needs of the dog's owner.

 

As I said much, much earlier. If we are going to compare the best and the worse of processed animal foods, than the conclusion will be much different. But as long as we are feeding the animal and they are not hunting and killing it themselves, the system is different. We're providing food for an animal. How close to perfect is the dog owner comfortable with?

 

I don't have a dog in this fight, just some things I was thinking. We want this wild dog as long as it doesn't pee or poop in the house, rip the carpet trying to make a den, is agressive when other animals invade its territory, etc. The whole pet thing becomes strange to me at some point. And I love dogs and cats.

[iamshack]

Humans absolutely know what they should and should not eat for the most part. They just don't care because they are obsessed with sugar and fat and everything that's been processed to taste delicious.

 

Humans just don't care.

So over the past 50 years, our government has deliberately recommended we eat diets which produce high rates of cancers and heart disease?

[iamshack]

As I said much, much earlier. If we are going to compare the best and the worse of processed animal foods, than the conclusion will be much different. But as long as we are feeding the animal and they are not hunting and killing it themselves, the system is different. We're providing food for an animal. How close to perfect is the dog owner comfortable with?

 

I don't have a dog in this fight, just some things I was thinking. We want this wild dog as long as it doesn't pee or poop in the house, rip the carpet trying to make a den, is agressive when other animals invade its territory, etc. The whole pet thing becomes strange to me at some point. And I love dogs and cats.

Tex...it's not a wild dog thing...it's about feeding the dog the foods its biology digests most efficiently...I understand what you are trying to get at...but our pets are not some "experiment" for most of us...

[Balta1701]

So over the past 50 years, our government has deliberately recommended we eat diets which produce high rates of cancers and heart disease?

Abso-f***ing-lutely.

[iamshack]

Abso-f***ing-lutely.

No.

 

They recommended diets which, as you mentioned, were cheap and could feed the masses most efficiently. Unfortunately, when you do nothing but sit on your ass and stare at a screen for the majority of your days, that diet produces heart attacks.

[Balta1701]

No.

 

They recommended diets which, as you mentioned, were cheap and could feed the masses most efficiently. Unfortunately, when you do nothing but sit on your ass and stare at a screen for the majority of your days, that diet produces heart attacks.

They also then gave enormous subsidies, on the orders of hundreds of billions of dollars and approaching trillions of dollars in total at this point, in order to make sure that the unhealthy food was so cheap and so ingrained into society that it couldn't be ignored. They then partnered with the food producers to make sure that the "food" was consumed, whether it wound up in schools, whether it wound up in fast food restaurants, whether it was repackaged into something even less resembling food, etc.

 

Did you know that taxpayer dollars foot the bill for a large part of those Domino's "we're now using real cheese!" ads last year? That was part of the Ag department's gift to the big dairy producers, finding another large consumer for its product and then financing the ad campaign to go with it. So yeah, the government has actively endorsed, paid for, and encouraged its citizens to eat crap diets.

[iamshack]

They also then gave enormous subsidies, on the orders of hundreds of billions of dollars and approaching trillions of dollars in total at this point, in order to make sure that the unhealthy food was so cheap and so ingrained into society that it couldn't be ignored. They then partnered with the food producers to make sure that the "food" was consumed, whether it wound up in schools, whether it wound up in fast food restaurants, whether it was repackaged into something even less resembling food, etc.

 

Did you know that taxpayer dollars foot the bill for a large part of those Domino's "we're now using real cheese!" ads last year? That was part of the Ag department's gift to the big dairy producers, finding another large consumer for its product and then financing the ad campaign to go with it. So yeah, the government has actively endorsed, paid for, and encouraged its citizens to eat crap diets.

And this was done in order to accomplish feeding the largest number of people possible.

 

Unfortunately they have no idea what they're doing from a financial standpoint or a nutritional standpoint.

 

 

[Texsox]

Tex...it's not a wild dog thing...it's about feeding the dog the foods its biology digests most efficiently...I understand what you are trying to get at...but our pets are not some "experiment" for most of us...

 

But aren't we doing just that when we provide food instead of allowing them to hunt their own? You have a very large breed that I doubt evolved to sit on couches. It seems like you are running an experiment to see what food and excercise routine works best for them. You would make changes if you saw something wasn't agreeing with them. You wouldmake changes if your researched convinced you there was something better. I'm not suggesting you are doing a bad or wrong thing. I wish every pet owner cared for their dogs as much as you care for yours. I just also leave open the possibility that other caring owners have found their dogs thrive on other diets, other training, and other socializations.

[Texsox]

No.

 

They recommended diets which, as you mentioned, were cheap and could feed the masses most efficiently. Unfortunately, when you do nothing but sit on your ass and stare at a screen for the majority of your days, that diet produces heart attacks.

 

 

Which brings up an interesting point. A dog's diet should be the same if they are roaming the woods trying to bring down game or sitting on a couch and going to a dog park?

[iamshack]

But aren't we doing just that when we provide food instead of allowing them to hunt their own? You have a very large breed that I doubt evolved to sit on couches. It seems like you are running an experiment to see what food and excercise routine works best for them. You would make changes if you saw something wasn't agreeing with them. You wouldmake changes if your researched convinced you there was something better. I'm not suggesting you are doing a bad or wrong thing. I wish every pet owner cared for their dogs as much as you care for yours. I just also leave open the possibility that other caring owners have found their dogs thrive on other diets, other training, and other socializations.

Fair point, I suppose I am running an experiment to try and produce the healthiest and happiest dog... which is made difficult because of the lack of understanding of a dog's needs over the past 3/4 century or so...as well as, as you articulately pointed out, I own a large breed that doesn't exactly fit in with modern urban society...