Chris Sale is now the CLOSER?!/Until he's not (Update)

[caulfield12]

I think they are capable of putting up the same numbers El Duque put up in 2005. If Keith Foulke was the Sox closer in 2003, I think they would have won the division.

 

 

Notice you DIDN'T SAY that Brandon McCarthy put up.

 

So instead you compare all those rookies with the exact opposite, a grizzled veteran signed for $6.5 million instead of a collection of rookie cast-offs, waiver claims and trade throw-ins.

 

Where's our Brandon McCarthy from 2005. Guess he's in Arizona.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Horseshoes and hand grenades, Dick.

 

If if if they'd only signed Kenny Rogers that offseason instead of letting him go to the Twins.

 

If if if the White Sox had kept Thome away from the Twins in 2010 and signed him instead of Jones/Kotsay.

 

If if if the Sox had signed Victor Martinez instead of Adam Dunn coming into 2011.

 

If if if Rick Hahn's son's coin flip when the other way, then KW would be out of a job, Game 163 would have been a loss and a major disappointment.

No, Keith Foulke was traded by KW. If he wasn't, the Sox win the division in 2003, Ozzie never becomes the White Sox manager, and perhaps never a manager. It was a watershed moment.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Why are you guys talking about 2005? That was a lifetime ago. It's 2012. The game has changed. Young, cheap STARTING pitching under contractual control is what's vogue now. The Sox have nothing in this department now.

[caulfield12]

I think you might have lost your mind. Ripping Greg Walker again. Check out the Braves offense.

 

 

Check out the White Sox BAA coming into this past weekend?

 

1st in the American League.

 

Better than the Rangers, Rays, Yankees, Angels, Mariners, A's, Red Sox, Blue Jays, etc.

[Dick Allen]

Check out the White Sox BAA coming into this past weekend?

 

1st in the American League.

 

Better than the Rangers, Rays, Yankees, Angels, Mariners, A's, Red Sox, Blue Jays, etc.

Yet they are under .500. Even with their anemic offense, even though the poison is no longer in the organization, they still could be in first place, but the dime a dozen closer hasn't worked out.

[caulfield12]

No, Keith Foulke was traded by KW. If he wasn't, the Sox win the division in 2003, Ozzie never becomes the White Sox manager, and perhaps never a manager. It was a watershed moment.

 

 

So now we lost that season on purpose, Keith Foulke deliberately removed himself from the closer's job, all directly leading to:

 

 

1) Moneyball book and movie (Foulke/Koch/Cotts deal, Adkins, Durham, Olivo/Bradford, etc.)

2) Boston Red Sox World Championship in 2004 (Foulke as closer there)

3) Chicago White Sox World Championship in 2005

4) Ozzie Guillen as Sox manager and Greg's hero

Edited May 7, 2012 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Why are you guys talking about 2005? That was a lifetime ago. It's 2012. The game has changed. Young, cheap STARTING pitching under contractual control is what's vogue now. The Sox have nothing in this department now.

Apparently a good chunk of Soxtalk thinks rehabbing pitchers are the next big thing and really want that.

[caulfield12]

Apparently a good chunk of Soxtalk thinks rehabbing pitchers are the next big thing and really want that.

 

 

If it's going to provide Steven Strasburg-esque results in 2014, better than what we're going to get from our 4th-5th starters in 2012 and 2013.

[Dick Allen]

If it's going to provide Steven Strasburg-esque results in 2014, better than what we're going to get from our 4th-5th starters in 2012 and 2013.

What if it provides Francisco Liriano results or Joey Zumaya?

If it did, you would be complaining, as Frank Thomas says, no doubt about it.

 

If it was so cut and dried that everyone would return the same or stronger and would never have another elbow issue again, teams would make pitchers have the surgery the day they were signed.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

What if it provides Francisco Liriano results or Joey Zumaya?

If it did, you would be complaining, as Frank Thomas says, no doubt about it.

 

 

Your pledge not to bring up Greg Walker lasted less than 24 hours. (Are you like Greg, where you're more a fan of personnel/coaches no longer currently associated with the White Sox? I'm starting to think you would rather the whole White Sox offense tanked this entire season if it would give you more support for your Manto attacks.)

 

Please support the Fathom Pledge, no Walk Talk.

 

 

But know this about Ken Williams: He believes in his heart that he has at least two, maybe three or four, young starting pitchers who can become the next generation of John Danks/Gavin Floyd. He loves right-hander Nestor Molina, who came from Toronto for Sergio Santos, and also lefty Jose Quintana, who signed a major-league contract after the Yankees allowed him to become a minor-league free agent. He’s also open to the idea of Simon Castro and Pedro Hernandez (both acquired from San Diego for Carlos Quentin) becoming long-term pieces of the White Sox’s pitching staff, not to mention the homegrown Cameron Bayne.

 

For the moment, that’s your starting rotation at Double-A Birmingham. But those guys -- not the fill-ins like Eric Stults and Dylan Axelrod -- are closer to Chicago than you might think. www.chicagotribune.com/sports

 

Whoever believes for a second in what Phil Rogers just wrote there (clearly spin from Rongey/Merkin/Williams) should have their head examined.

Edited May 7, 2012 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Your pledge not to bring up Greg Walker lasted less than 24 hours. (Are you like Greg, where you're more a fan of personnel/coaches no longer currently associated with the White Sox? I'm starting to think you would rather the whole White Sox offense tanked this entire season if it would give you more support for your Manto attacks.)

 

Please support the Fathom Pledge, no Walk Talk.

 

 

But know this about Ken Williams: He believes in his heart that he has at least two, maybe three or four, young starting pitchers who can become the next generation of John Danks/Gavin Floyd. He loves right-hander Nestor Molina, who came from Toronto for Sergio Santos, and also lefty Jose Quintana, who signed a major-league contract after the Yankees allowed him to become a minor-league free agent. He’s also open to the idea of Simon Castro and Pedro Hernandez (both acquired from San Diego for Carlos Quentin) becoming long-term pieces of the White Sox’s pitching staff, not to mention the homegrown Cameron Bayne.

 

For the moment, that’s your starting rotation at Double-A Birmingham. But those guys -- not the fill-ins like Eric Stults and Dylan Axelrod -- are closer to Chicago than you might think. www.chicagotribune.com/sports

 

Whoever believes for a second in what Phil Rogers just wrote there (clearly spin from Rongey/Merkin/Williams) should have their head examined.

What pledge. I understand the Sox WS hopes this season and next and for the foreseeable future hinged on Chris Sale making 32 starts a season, but it wasn't going to happen. Get it through your head. Rogers is no spin, he and KW do not get along, and he's ripped KW more than I have.

[caulfield12]

This is what it has pathetically come down to now.

 

Selling the fans of the 2nd worst attended franchise (already, with Chris Sale) in the majors that a bunch of no-names from the AA team of the worst minor league system in the world are going to rise up from nothing and save the day.

 

Don Cooper really is good, if he can pull that off.

 

But nobody's buying it.

 

And whatever happened to Zach Stewart as part of the future rotations? Guess KW conveniently forgot to mention that fiasco of a trade.

 

 

 

 

[ptatc]

What if it provides Francisco Liriano results or Joey Zumaya?

If it did, you would be complaining, as Frank Thomas says, no doubt about it.

 

If it was so cut and dried that everyone would return the same or stronger and would never have another elbow issue again, teams would make pitchers have the surgery the day they were signed.

Especially if they do not change the mechanical flaws that lead to the problem in the first place.

[caulfield12]

Especially if they do not change the mechanical flaws that lead to the problem in the first place.

 

And the Twins had that amazing 2006 stretch run, the Tigers the 2007 World Series, to show for Liriano and Zumaya...there's that.

 

What do we have, exactly?

 

The Twins also made the playoffs two more times with Liriano as one of their STARTERS and not relievers. Are you so sure GM Ryan would have given up the 2006 season and done what exactly with Liriano? Put him into the bullpen all season long?

 

Would the Twins have made the playoffs in 2009 and 2010 without Liriano in their rotation?

Edited May 7, 2012 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

And the Twins had that amazing 2006 stretch run, the Tigers the 2007 World Series, to show for Liriano and Zumaya...there's that.

 

What do we have, exactly?

 

The Twins also made the playoffs two more times with Liriano as one of their STARTERS and not relievers. Are you so sure GM Ryan would have given up the 2006 season and done what exactly with Liriano? Put him into the bullpen all season long?

 

Would the Twins have made the playoffs in 2009 and 2010 without Liriano in their rotation?

 

Zumaya was a reliever in your situation. You cannot take a single scenario or even a few cases and say you have enough data to confidently say "this is how we should treat this injury"

 

I'm not sure how you can extrapolate a teams performance from an individual's elbow problems. If you want to risk the health and career of one of your players, that's your choice. Between Cooper and Schneider, the Sox have a pretty good track record of keeping pitchers healthy. If they do not feel Sale can do it, I would side with them. From what I've seen, I would agree.

You also don't know the situation behind the other pitcher's problems. Were they having problems maintaining their pitches between games. Was there pain and altered mechanics on the off days? Could they even long toss on their off days? Generalizing injuries is not a very effective way to treat another pitcher.

[Dick Allen]

It is funny Texas and Tampa were brought up as 2 examples of how to build a bullpen considering each has down something that is supposedly taboo to Soxtalk. Feliz was the closer for Texas when he should have been stretching out his arm in AAA to start, and Tampa has made the curious decision to move Wade Davis, once a top 40 prospect peaking at #17, which I believe is higher than Sale ever peaked, from the rotation to the bullpen thus killing his value.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

It is funny Texas and Tampa were brought up as 2 examples of how to build a bullpen considering each has down something that is supposedly taboo to Soxtalk. Feliz was the closer for Texas when he should have been stretching out his arm in AAA to start, and Tampa has made the curious decision to move Wade Davis, once a top 40 prospect peaking at #17, which I believe is higher than Sale ever peaked, from the rotation to the bullpen thus killing his value.

 

 

How deep is the Rays' starting rotation, vis a vis the White Sox?

 

How deep is their minor league system, vis a vis the White Sox?

 

Where are they in the standings? Whatever they're doing, it's seeming to work, since they've been in the playoffs year after year after year in the toughest division in MLB.

 

Their major league rotation isn't going to suffer as a result because they have the depth to cover it up or make a trade.

 

What team's going to give us another Chris Sale for $12 million worth in commitment to Matt Thornton? Not likely. Whereas the Rays still have the ability to trade Wade Davis and get a nice return because everyone knows he doesn't have the same structural/mechanical flaws.

 

And they're doing all this while missing Longoria from the line-up.

 

Take Paul Konerko or Dunn out of the current White Sox line-up and we're fighting with the Twins and Royals to get to last place and a Top 5-7 pick in 2013. Many would argue that's exactly what we SHOULD be doing.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2012 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

How deep is the Rays' starting rotation, vis a vis the White Sox?

 

How deep is their minor league system, vis a vis the White Sox?

 

Where are they in the standings? Whatever they're doing, it's seeming to work, since they've been in the playoffs year after year after year in the toughest division in MLB.

 

Their major league rotation isn't going to suffer as a result because they have the depth to cover it up or make a trade.

 

What team's going to give us another Chris Sale for $12 million worth in commitment to Matt Thornton? Not likely. Whereas the Rays still have the ability to trade Wade Davis and get a nice return because everyone knows he doesn't have the structural/mechanical flaws.

Then they should have traded him correct? The second he moved to the bullpen his value plummeted. You have taught me well.

 

I must say I am just shocked you don't believe Don Cooper can develop a #5 starter in the next couple of seasons.

 

And just so you know, every team knew about Sale's potential issues. Its the only reason the Sox had a chance to draft him.

 

Also, since the Sox had the #5 starter instead of Sale yesterday, for that game to be a win, Sale would have had to thrown a shutout. Highly unlikely. There's one start the Sox are better off he's in the bullpen.

Edited May 7, 2012 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

Then they should have traded him correct? The second he moved to the bullpen his value plummeted. You have taught me well.

 

I must say I am just shocked you don't believe Don Cooper can develop a #5 starter in the next couple of seasons.

 

And just so you know, every team knew about Sale's potential issues. Its the only reason the Sox had a chance to draft him.

 

Also, since the Sox had the #5 starter instead of Sale yesterday, for that game to be a win, Sale would have had to thrown a shutout. Highly unlikely. There's one start the Sox are better off he's in the bullpen.

 

 

Do you read? When did Davis' value plummet because of overwhelming concerns about his elbow blowing apart at any minute?

 

So the White Sox were "smarter" than all the other teams because they overlooked all the concerns? Sounds like the same rationale that got us Alex Rios and Peavy when he was on the DL.

 

And I said there's no way those starters can be developed for 2012.

[TaylorStSox]

How deep is the Rays' starting rotation, vis a vis the White Sox?

 

How deep is their minor league system, vis a vis the White Sox?

 

Where are they in the standings? Whatever they're doing, it's seeming to work, since they've been in the playoffs year after year after year in the toughest division in MLB.

 

Their major league rotation isn't going to suffer as a result because they have the depth to cover it up or make a trade.

 

What team's going to give us another Chris Sale for $12 million worth in commitment to Matt Thornton? Not likely. Whereas the Rays still have the ability to trade Wade Davis and get a nice return because everyone knows he doesn't have the same structural/mechanical flaws.

 

And they're doing all this while missing Longoria from the line-up.

 

Take Paul Konerko or Dunn out of the current White Sox line-up and we're fighting with the Twins and Royals to get to last place and a Top 5-7 pick in 2013. Many would argue that's exactly what we SHOULD be doing.

 

 

[Reddy]

 

well, for the last week at least...

[caulfield12]

The point is, the Rays have made the playoffs 3 of the last 4 seasons (2008, 2010, 2011).

 

We've managed that accomplishment 3 times in the last 20 years or so.

 

And there's just no comparison between the AL Central and the AL East.

Edited May 7, 2012 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

The point is, the Rays have made the playoffs 3 of the last 4 seasons (2008, 2010, 2011).

 

We've managed that accomplishment 3 times in the last 20 years or so.

 

And there's just no comparison between the AL Central and the AL East.

Technically the Rays have also made the playoffs 3 times in the last 20 years as well.

 

Oh, and 4 times for the Sox. 93, 00, 05, 08, and would have in 94 had there been no strike.

[Reddy]

Technically the Rays have also made the playoffs 3 times in the last 20 years as well.

 

Oh, and 4 times for the Sox. 93, 00, 05, 08, and would have in 94 had there been no strike.

cept the rays were an expansion team... and haven't EXISTED for 20 years...

[justBLAZE]

Daryl Van Schouwen ‏ @CST_soxvan

 

Sale is not entrenched in bullpen. Cooper and Sale told me today he could return to the rotation this year.