November 6, 201213 yr Jesus, Dick, you can just say you don't like Adam Dunn and you think he's overrated and be done with it. You are arguing to argue, and you are baiting people into arguing with you. This is not productive conversation.
November 6, 201213 yr Why are you saying the suggestion of dumping a guy who strikes out more often than anyone who ever played MLB, has a career .181 average with the Sox and is owed over $30 million over the next 2 years means the poster who suggested it is dumb? That money could be re allocated and I'm pretty sure you could find an .800 OPS guy for less. The fact is Dunn will be a White Sox next year, and one thing that cements it is no other team would take that contract. Strikeout totals and batting average have little to do with a hitter's value, and I'm not 100% certain you can get a free agent guaranteed to put up an .800+ OPS for much less.
November 6, 201213 yr QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 10:26 AM) Strikeout totals and batting average have little to do with a hitter's value, and I'm not 100% certain you can get a free agent guaranteed to put up an .800+ OPS for much less. Please stop. This is not absolute fact but merely opinion that cannot be universally applied to all batters in all slots. If your eyes told you that Adam Dunn helped the team more than he hurt it this year then that's your opinion. My opinion is that he, along with a few other hitters, killed us. He hurt us the most because he placed an unfeared, auto-out in between our stack of good hitters. Just because he hit 41 pitches hard this year does not discount the other 1500 that fooled him. Stats aside I'd rate the offense like this: DeAza- tough out Youk- tough out Dunn- easy out PK- tough out Rios- tough out AJ- tough out Tank- easy out Alexei- easy out Jimmy- easy out IMO Dunn was the biggest problem.
November 6, 201213 yr QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 11:35 AM) Please stop. This is not absolute fact but merely opinion that cannot be universally applied to all batters in all slots. If your eyes told you that Adam Dunn helped the team more than he hurt it this year then that's your opinion. My opinion is that he, along with a few other hitters, killed us. He hurt us the most because he placed an unfeared, auto-out in between our stack of good hitters. Just because he hit 41 pitches hard this year does not discount the other 1500 that fooled him. Stats aside I'd rate the offense like this: DeAza- tough out Youk- tough out Dunn- easy out PK- tough out Rios- tough out AJ- tough out Tank- easy out Alexei- easy out Jimmy- easy out IMO Dunn was the biggest problem. .236/.346/.425/.771 .204/.333/.468/.800 Something tells me Youkilis was a bigger problem than Dunn, and Youkilis wasn't a problem. Dunn could be better, but he wasn't the cause of the offense's downfall. He didn't have a good second half, but there weren't a lot of guys that did.
November 6, 201213 yr QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 11:35 AM) Please stop. This is not absolute fact but merely opinion that cannot be universally applied to all batters in all slots. If your eyes told you that Adam Dunn helped the team more than he hurt it this year then that's your opinion. My opinion is that he, along with a few other hitters, killed us. He hurt us the most because he placed an unfeared, auto-out in between our stack of good hitters. Just because he hit 41 pitches hard this year does not discount the other 1500 that fooled him. Stats aside I'd rate the offense like this: DeAza- tough out Youk- tough out Dunn- easy out PK- tough out Rios- tough out AJ- tough out Tank- easy out Alexei- easy out Jimmy- easy out IMO Dunn was the biggest problem. AJ made outs at a higher percentage than Dunn did, so you are just wrong. And Rios & Dunn were at about the same clip.
November 6, 201213 yr QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 10:26 AM) Strikeout totals and batting average have little to do with a hitter's value, and I'm not 100% certain you can get a free agent guaranteed to put up an .800+ OPS for much less. Next time a Sox hitter strikes out with the tying run on 3rd and one out, remind me of this position. Dunn's OBP for which you seem to be touting, wasn't all that high. Even with leading the league in walks, it was 4th among Sox regulars. Edited November 6, 201213 yr by Dick Allen
November 6, 201213 yr QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 02:10 PM) Next time a Sox hitter strikes out with the tying run on 3rd and one out, remind me of this position. Dunn's OBP for which you seem to be touting, wasn't all that high. Even with leading the league in walks, it was 4th among Sox regulars. Runner on 3rd less than 2 outs Adam Dunn hit .478 with an OPS of 1.499. So ya, theres that.
November 6, 201213 yr QUOTE (2nd_city_saint787 @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 01:30 PM) Runner on 3rd less than 2 outs Adam Dunn hit .478 with an OPS of 1.499. So ya, theres that. He also struck out 5 times. As long as we are praising Dunn, check out his numbers with 2 out and runners in scoring position. It was only a year ago this very board wanted nothing to do with Carlos Quentin and his chance to make $ 8-9 million in arb for an .850+ OPS. Now they say you can't get an .800 OPS guy for less than $15 million per...... Edited November 6, 201213 yr by Dick Allen
November 6, 201213 yr QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 11:35 AM) Please stop. This is not absolute fact but merely opinion that cannot be universally applied to all batters in all slots. If your eyes told you that Adam Dunn helped the team more than he hurt it this year then that's your opinion. My opinion is that he, along with a few other hitters, killed us. He hurt us the most because he placed an unfeared, auto-out in between our stack of good hitters. Just because he hit 41 pitches hard this year does not discount the other 1500 that fooled him. Stats aside I'd rate the offense like this: DeAza- tough out Youk- tough out Dunn- easy out PK- tough out Rios- tough out AJ- tough out Tank- easy out Alexei- easy out Jimmy- easy out IMO Dunn was the biggest problem. But he clearly wasn't the biggest problem. If he were an easy out he would not walk as much as he does. He committed fewer outs than more than half the team. If this is your opinion, then I really don't have any use for your opinion. Its just flat out wrong.
November 6, 201213 yr QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 03:03 PM) He also struck out 5 times. As long as we are praising Dunn, check out his numbers with 2 out and runners in scoring position. It was only a year ago this very board wanted nothing to do with Carlos Quentin and his chance to make $ 8-9 million in arb for an .850+ OPS. Now they say you can't get an .800 OPS guy for less than $15 million per...... I was just pointing out the specific scenario you put in your post (runner on 3rd LT 2 outs). The difference between the CQ situation and Dunn is the Sox had Dayan waiting in the wings, at some point he needed to be given a shot. The Sox need a middle of the lineup LH bat to replace Dunn, you're not gonna find that in the minors or anywhere for cheap. If they can get a guy like Headley or Josh Hamilton who can be that guy and can trade Dunn for something of value then sure I won't complain. But if we go into next season with no threat from the left side of the plate I will be very disappointed. It would be pre all in all over again. Edited November 6, 201213 yr by 2nd_city_saint787
November 6, 201213 yr QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 02:03 PM) He also struck out 5 times. As long as we are praising Dunn, check out his numbers with 2 out and runners in scoring position. It was only a year ago this very board wanted nothing to do with Carlos Quentin and his chance to make $ 8-9 million in arb for an .850+ OPS. Now they say you can't get an .800 OPS guy for less than $15 million per...... That's cause you would need another player to replace an injured Quentin for half the season.
November 6, 201213 yr QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 11:35 AM) Please stop. This is not absolute fact but merely opinion that cannot be universally applied to all batters in all slots. If your eyes told you that Adam Dunn helped the team more than he hurt it this year then that's your opinion. My opinion is that he, along with a few other hitters, killed us. He hurt us the most because he placed an unfeared, auto-out in between our stack of good hitters. Just because he hit 41 pitches hard this year does not discount the other 1500 that fooled him. Stats aside I'd rate the offense like this: DeAza- tough out Youk- tough out Dunn- easy out PK- tough out Rios- tough out AJ- tough out Tank- easy out Alexei- easy out Jimmy- easy out IMO Dunn was the biggest problem. Lol, statistical research is not fact, but the Jerksticks "tough out/easy out" matrix is rock solid. If you use facts, you find out that only Konerko, Rios, De Aza, and Youkilis made fewer outs on the White Sox than Dunn. Edited November 6, 201213 yr by Eminor3rd
November 6, 201213 yr QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 02:46 PM) Lol, statistical research is not fact, but the Jerksticks "tough out/easy out" matrix is rock solid. If you use facts, you find out that only Konerko, Rios, De Aza, and Youkilis made fewer outs on the White Sox than Dunn. Let's be fair here - Will Ohman made fewer outs than Adam Dunn too.
November 6, 201213 yr QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 11:35 AM) Please stop. This is not absolute fact but merely opinion that cannot be universally applied to all batters in all slots. If your eyes told you that Adam Dunn helped the team more than he hurt it this year then that's your opinion. My opinion is that he, along with a few other hitters, killed us. He hurt us the most because he placed an unfeared, auto-out in between our stack of good hitters. Just because he hit 41 pitches hard this year does not discount the other 1500 that fooled him. Stats aside I'd rate the offense like this: DeAza- tough out Youk- tough out Dunn- easy out PK- tough out Rios- tough out AJ- tough out Tank- easy out Alexei- easy out Jimmy- easy out IMO Dunn was the biggest problem. The problem with your opinion is that it's just completely wrong.
November 7, 201213 yr QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 02:07 PM) But he clearly wasn't the biggest problem. If he were an easy out he would not walk as much as he does. He committed fewer outs than more than half the team. If this is your opinion, then I really don't have any use for your opinion. Its just flat out wrong. Lol cool, then don't use it. Do you feel better getting that snotty jab in there? Man, I'd cringe every time Dunn would be up, especially when we just needed some team ball, like a weak groundball to the right side, just some contact Adam. Any decent pitcher got him all year. To you, just another out. To me, rally death. Why can't I hate his style of baseball in peace? He f***ing sucks my Jerksticks eye test for 3-hole hitting. This has validity.
November 7, 201213 yr QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 10:00 PM) Lol cool, then don't use it. Do you feel better getting that snotty jab in there? Man, I'd cringe every time Dunn would be up, especially when we just needed some team ball, like a weak groundball to the right side, just some contact Adam. Any decent pitcher got him all year. To you, just another out. To me, rally death. Why can't I hate his style of baseball in peace? He f***ing sucks my Jerksticks eye test for 3-hole hitting. This has validity. I wish everything was just based on opinion...tough out, not tough out, good pitcher, bad pitcher. Who needs stats? Let alone advanced ones? They are so worthless. They don't actually present, you know, facts.
November 7, 201213 yr QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 10:00 PM) Lol cool, then don't use it. Do you feel better getting that snotty jab in there? Man, I'd cringe every time Dunn would be up, especially when we just needed some team ball, like a weak groundball to the right side, just some contact Adam. Any decent pitcher got him all year. To you, just another out. To me, rally death. Why can't I hate his style of baseball in peace? He f***ing sucks my Jerksticks eye test for 3-hole hitting. This has validity. In 2012 Felix Hernandez - 1 for 2, HR, BB, K Clayton Kershaw - 1 for 2, HR, BB, K Jose Valverde (before his arm fell off) - 2 for 4, 2B, HR, K Tim Collins - 1 for 3, HR, 2 BB, K Vinnie Pestano - 1 for 3, HR, K Matt Moore - 1 for 4, HR, BB, K (make bold rationalizations and cherry-picking will occur)
November 7, 201213 yr Next time a Sox hitter strikes out with the tying run on 3rd and one out, remind me of this position. Dunn's OBP for which you seem to be touting, wasn't all that high. Even with leading the league in walks, it was 4th among Sox regulars. It was 4th among Sox regulars, and one of the three better is already gone, so the Sox really need to look at upgrading the other five or they will have a lineup where nobody ever gets on base. If the Sox had five other guys in the lineup with an OBP over .350, then yes, I'd look into replacing Dunn, but his OBP, while subpar by Dunn's standards, is valuable to the Sox right now. And for every time Dunn strikes out with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs, Konerko/Rios ground into two double plays.
November 7, 201213 yr QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 7, 2012 -> 07:12 AM) It was 4th among Sox regulars, and one of the three better is already gone, so the Sox really need to look at upgrading the other five or they will have a lineup where nobody ever gets on base. If the Sox had five other guys in the lineup with an OBP over .350, then yes, I'd look into replacing Dunn, but his OBP, while subpar by Dunn's standards, is valuable to the Sox right now. And for every time Dunn strikes out with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs, Konerko/Rios ground into two double plays. He actually was 5th. Also Mr. Clutch with 2 outs and RISP hit .136 with a .577 OPS.
November 7, 201213 yr He actually was 5th. Also Mr. Clutch with 2 outs and RISP hit .136 with a .577 OPS. Oh yeah, Rios got him by one point at the end. Dunn is getting every team's best lefty reliever in the clutch situations. Kinda like Fielder, Mauer, and Gordon are always going to get Donnie Veal in those situations.
November 7, 201213 yr QUOTE (IlliniKrush @ Nov 6, 2012 -> 10:52 PM) I wish everything was just based on opinion...tough out, not tough out, good pitcher, bad pitcher. Who needs stats? Let alone advanced ones? They are so worthless. They don't actually present, you know, facts. ? .200/.330/.460 in the 3-hole just doesn't get it done for me. There's a stat I don't like. Kinda backs up my opinion that we need to get a better 3-hole hitter for 2013, no? We need some .380 OBP in that position. Someone dangerous. Let 0-2, Free Swings McGee bat elsewhere.
November 7, 201213 yr We need some .380 OBP in that position. I hear there's like a dozen .380 OBP guys just begging for teams to sign them.
November 7, 201213 yr QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 7, 2012 -> 08:49 AM) I hear there's like a dozen .380 OBP guys just begging for teams to sign them. Yawn. You say that like I don't know that. We need to improve the offense, not tinker with it. I think a drastic, ballsy trade or signing is coming- a little shakeup. Wouldn't that address the problem Mr. GreenText? Or are you gonna throw budget numbers at me next from the armchair? We can't just plug a top 3b prospect in there an hope to contend. We have too many black holes already. Need a bat dude. Give Hahn a chance. He has the means to shake it up if he so desires.
November 7, 201213 yr Yawn. You say that like I don't know that. We need to improve the offense, not tinker with it. I think a drastic, ballsy trade or signing is coming- a little shakeup. Wouldn't that address the problem Mr. GreenText? Or are you gonna throw budget numbers at me next from the armchair? We can't just plug a top 3b prospect in there an hope to contend. We have too many black holes already. Need a bat dude. Give Hahn a chance. He has the means to shake it up if he so desires. A drastic, ballsy trade would be great, but it's hard to bank on that. As for the budget, I'm not so much concerned about the dollars on FA contracts as I am the years. You can justify the money that Josh Hamilton will get for 2013 and maybe a couple years after that, but that's going to be a terrible contract down the road. If there's a guy out there who will go for bigger dollars at fewer years, I'd go after him.
November 7, 201213 yr QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Nov 7, 2012 -> 09:28 AM) A drastic, ballsy trade would be great, but it's hard to bank on that. As for the budget, I'm not so much concerned about the dollars on FA contracts as I am the years. You can justify the money that Josh Hamilton will get for 2013 and maybe a couple years after that, but that's going to be a terrible contract down the road. If there's a guy out there who will go for bigger dollars at fewer years, I'd go after him. Now we're talkin. What happens to the outfield if we get Hamilton? Tough ass question to answer. If we replace Rios' contract with his then we aren't really adding that much payroll, plus we get the Rios prospects. I think we'd still need another bat then. But we'd have at least an extra stud prospect from Rios to help. What about the TV $40M? Any news on how the Sox view that? Seems like a little insurance for a ballsy move. We have the pitching to make a legit run but does the brass see it that way?
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