Buddy Bell

[caulfield12]

I'm still not understanding why you have all the love you do for Buddy Bell if you can't even provide a coherent defense for him, other than the fact that Laumann and our college/high school scouts suck at drafting position players...

 

[southsider2k5]

I'm still not understanding why you have all the love you do for Buddy Bell if you can't even provide a coherent defense for him, other than the fact that Laumann and our college/high school scouts suck at drafting position players...

 

I'm not sure how you can indict him without a consistent argument. If the argument is that he got nothing but bricks in terms of minor league talent, what is he supposed to do with that? At best the argument is that it is inconclusive. If you ignore everything that doesn't fit into your argument, such as De Aza, Viciedo, Harrell, Reed, Sale, Jones, Beckham, Quintana, Axelrod, Santiago, Richards etc. then it turns into a great irrational rant.

[Balta1701]

I'm not sure how you can indict him without a consistent argument. If the argument is that he got nothing but bricks in terms of minor league talent, what is he supposed to do with that? At best the argument is that it is inconclusive. If you ignore everything that doesn't fit into your argument, such as De Aza, Viciedo, Harrell, Reed, Sale, Jones, Beckham, Quintana, Axelrod, Santiago, Richards etc. then it turns into a great irrational rant.

Did he spend 5 years having zero input into the people who were drafted/signed, particularly on offense?

 

If he did, then the argument that he wasn't selecting the players works, and the fact that he was promoted last year should be a credit to him and an indictment of the people who were doing the drafting.

 

If he had input into some of those drafts...then you can start hanging him with the fact that so few position players have been produced.

[caulfield12]

All of these arguments will go around in circles because you can argue that Hahn's responsible....well, no, it's KW behind the scenes, actually.

 

It's Bell. No, it's Laumann. No, it's Paddy that deserves credit. JR is loyal to a fault, etc.

 

One thing that has to be true is either they're doing a bad job of drafting position players (scouting, Laumann) or they're not improving any of the players that we do draft, in fact, they often regress or bust. Perhaps it's both.

 

If it's the latter argument, then what does Bell actually do that's helpful to counter this?

 

All we really know to be true about Bell is that he was 1) a bad manager, in at least two places, 2) a proponent of bringing Mark Teahen and Jeff Keppinger on board, from his time with the Royals' organization.

Edited May 13, 2013 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

I'm not sure how you can indict him without a consistent argument. If the argument is that he got nothing but bricks in terms of minor league talent, what is he supposed to do with that? At best the argument is that it is inconclusive. If you ignore everything that doesn't fit into your argument, such as De Aza, Viciedo, Harrell, Reed, Sale, Jones, Beckham, Quintana, Axelrod, Santiago, Richards etc. then it turns into a great irrational rant.

 

 

What's rational about claiming that Harrell, Jones, Beckham, Axelrod and Clayton Richard are anything special or close to All-Star talent?

 

Are we really so desperate that we're claiming Dylan Axelrod a long-term success story? After all, Axelrod is the shortest RH starting pitcher in the game with the slowest average fastball of all those aforementioned RH starters. In other words, the COMPLETE opposite of every pitcher that KW fell in love with for a decade, either relievers or starters.

 

And when does Bell ever work with pitchers? Isn't his area of expertise SUPPOSEDLY hitters/infielders, since that was his position in the majors, 3B?

 

Was Bell in the Dominican when they were scouting both Ramirez and Viciedo?

 

Has DeAza ever credited Buddy Bell with helping him in any way, shape or form?

[southsider2k5]

I'm not sure how you can indict him without a consistent argument. If the argument is that he got nothing but bricks in terms of minor league talent, what is he supposed to do with that? At best the argument is that it is inconclusive. If you ignore everything that doesn't fit into your argument, such as De Aza, Viciedo, Harrell, Reed, Sale, Jones, Beckham, Quintana, Axelrod, Santiago, Richards etc. then it turns into a great irrational rant.

 

 

All of these arguments will go around in circles because you can argue that Hahn's responsible....well, no, it's KW behind the scenes, actually.

 

It's Bell. No, it's Laumann. No, it's Paddy that deserves credit. JR is loyal to a fault, etc.

 

One thing that has to be true is either they're doing a bad job of drafting position players (scouting, Laumann) or they're not improving any of the players that we do draft, in fact, they often regress or bust. Perhaps it's both.

 

If it's the latter argument, then what does Bell actually do that's helpful to counter this?

 

All we really know to be true about Bell is that he was 1) a bad manager, in at least two places, 2) a proponent of bringing Mark Teahen and Jeff Keppinger on board, from his time with the Royals' organization.

 

[caulfield12]

 

 

Ummm...other than pitchers that he has almost nothing to do with, and guys like Sale or Reed who were barely in our minor league system for more than a cup of tea....name one position player success story from the last five years (of any player that we've drafted in that time span).

[southsider2k5]

Ummm...other than pitchers that he has almost nothing to do with, and guys like Sale or Reed who were barely in our minor league system for more than a cup of tea....name one position player success story from the last five years (of any player that we've drafted in that time span).

 

Changing your argument already? There were position players in there, at least until you find another arbitrary reason to exclude them too... Back into circles we go.

[caulfield12]

Changing your argument already? There were position players in there, at least until you find another arbitrary reason to exclude them too... Back into circles we go.

 

 

"name one position player success story from the last five years (of any player that we've drafted in that time span)"

 

How about this? There's no point in arguing back and forth. I would love to hear any arguments for why people think Buddy Bell is doing a good job, why they have faith in him and why he should definitely be a part of the future of the White Sox organization.

 

That's it.

 

If you want, you can even argue that Gordon Beckham's defense not being in the line-up has cost us 2-3 wins, and that Bell is responsible for Gordon's defensive abilities. (Well, it would be nice if you could back that up or support it with any evidence or at least a quote from somewhere). Or that Bell has made Conor Gillaspie the success story of early 2013. ETC.

 

If you want, you can even go back 6-7-8 years to the World Series team. Any position player drafted. You're left with an argument that C. Carter or Gordon Beckham are the two best products of our system...non-pitchers.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2013 by caulfield12

[southsider2k5]

So you tell me that the Kenny Williams is awful at drafting, and to make the argument that Buddy Bell isn't good at his job, you want me to find players that Kenny Williams drafted that succeeded? Oh but wait, let me keep narrowing the parameters until they are soooo narrow that there isn't anyway you can win! LMFAO.

 

FIND A PLAYER DRAFTED IN THE LAST 15 MINUTES THAT STARTS WITH THE LETTER X!!!

 

Finding players that Kenny didn't draft, and that succeeded, is actually a pretty solid argument that Bell isn't the problem here. If the Sox weren't getting anyone young to succeed, then you might have an argument about Bell being worthless, but that just isn't true.

[caulfield12]

So you tell me that the Kenny Williams is awful at drafting, and to make the argument that Buddy Bell isn't good at his job, you want me to find players that Kenny Williams drafted that succeeded? Oh but wait, let me keep narrowing the parameters until they are soooo narrow that there isn't anyway you can win! LMFAO.

 

FIND A PLAYER DRAFTED IN THE LAST 15 MINUTES THAT STARTS WITH THE LETTER X!!!

 

Finding players that Kenny didn't draft, and that succeeded, is actually a pretty solid argument that Bell isn't the problem here. If the Sox weren't getting anyone young to succeed, then you might have an argument about Bell being worthless, but that just isn't true.

 

 

 

Then fine, maybe we should only draft pitchers and concentrate all our other efforts on Latin America, Asia and finding/scouting position players from other teams.

 

I guess it's entirely unreasonable to expect one position player drafted by the organization to make an All-Star team, say, at least once a decade.

 

We would be much better off turning our minor league pitching depth into future Carlos Quentins/MVP-caliber players than hoping and praying for miracles.

[RockRaines]

Sometimes its better for your stress level to write these things down on a piece of paper and throw it away. Could be therapeutic for you.

[Steve9347]

Honestly, I would rather have Fathom, Dick Allen or most of the moderators here in Bell's position.

This is the dumbest sentence in the history of Soxtalk.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Steve9347

[Jake]

In additon to his lack of devopment, he also reccommendef Teahen and Keppinger. It is alright to be wrong occassionally, everyone is. He just is never right.

 

Better that than be the guy that recommended Dunn or Danks

[Balta1701]

Better that than be the guy that recommended Dunn or Danks

I think whoever recommended John Danks to the White Sox did a pretty nice job.

[NorthSideSox72]

I do think it is valid to question Bell's performance. The drafting has been getting better by all accounts, and now international spending is up dramatically. So where are the results from those few years? The argument against Bell is that the Sox have been really bad at developing position players. There is no way around this as fact, and Bell has some responsibility there.

 

The hard part is... how much? How much falls to people above or below him? How much credit does he get for the pitchers, who have done well in general? I don't know how much input Bell has with pitcher development. Does anyone?

 

I think it will take another couple years to really see the fruits of the labors in changing draft strategies, increasing international spending, and a more level playing field in draft bonuses. So I don't think it is time yet to go asking for Bell to get fired, unless you know something about his techniques causing specific problems (which, again, no one here really knows).

 

And I wouldn't get too wrapped up in slow starts for certain guys. Sanchez is still awfully young and has plenty of time to adjust. Thompson is just getting hot now. Walker missed time and had two significant injuries he is recovering from. Saladino is putting it back together, somewhat. Semien is looking awfully good. Hawkins' struggles are well-documented but he is just real raw at this point. These are all names to keep an eye on this year, in terms of position players - let's see how the full year goes.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I think whoever recommended John Danks to the White Sox did a pretty nice job.

And I don't think anyone could have predicted Dunn's epic collapse. People thought he may come down a little, but no one predicted this. I can't see blaming the Sox on that deal.

 

[Kyyle23]

This is the dumbest sentence in the history of Soxtalk.

 

HEY!

 

well, ok, you are probably right.

 

But HEY!!!

[caulfield12]

Sometimes its better for your stress level to write these things down on a piece of paper and throw it away. Could be therapeutic for you.

 

 

LOL. If I was so stressed about it, I would just avoid the White Sox completely for awhile like quite a few are choosing to do this year...if something becomes not fun or enjoyable, why bother?

 

By the way, you never mentioned what you think about Bell. Why so quiet recently?