Jerry CrasnickVerified account

‏@jcrasnick

The #mariners are expected to shop OF Michael Saunders hard at GM meetings. Both sides appear ready to move on.

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It wouldn't shock me if a Viciedo for Saunders deal is discussed.

Jerry CrasnickVerified account

‏@jcrasnick

The #mariners are expected to shop OF Michael Saunders hard at GM meetings. Both sides appear ready to move on.

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It wouldn't shock me if a Viciedo for Saunders deal is discussed.

 

Is he a good defender? Never really been a fan of his.

Is he a good defender? Never really been a fan of his.

yea as flawed as Viciedo is, he has power. Saunders has little; needs to make up for it with D, of which Viciedo has little except for his arm. Speaking of which, how do the outfield metrics measure and account for arm strength?

Edited November 7, 201411 yr by GreenSox

Is he a good defender? Never really been a fan of his.

 

According to the mlbtraderumors write up, they said he's above average in LF and RF

Jerry CrasnickVerified account

‏@jcrasnick

The #mariners are expected to shop OF Michael Saunders hard at GM meetings. Both sides appear ready to move on.

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It wouldn't shock me if a Viciedo for Saunders deal is discussed.

 

I was thinking the same thing when I saw they are shopping him. Tank for Saunders almost makes too much sense as a classic change of scenery trade. I'd much rather take a shot on Saunders over signing veterans on the FA market for $12+million who isn't worth it.

I was thinking the same thing when I saw they are shopping him. Tank for Saunders almost makes too much sense as a classic change of scenery trade. I'd much rather take a shot on Saunders over signing veterans on the FA market for $12+million who isn't worth it.

I really like what you say here. Saunders could be a very good alternative to spending money on Rasmus. That money could be spent somewhere else and get rid of Tank and his salary.

 

I hope the Sox explore this possibility.

Funny timing on this... Will Carroll retweeted this about 35mins ago, though the original tweet was from March 9th.

 

Will Carroll retweeted

Jason A. Churchill ‏@ProspectInsider Mar 9

Hearing Michael Saunders is a name that has been discussed in Dayan Viciedo talks with White Sox.

That would be a coup for us. Saunders > Viciedo without question.

That would be a coup for us. Saunders > Viciedo without question.

 

Have you looked at Saunders' stats? It hardly would be a coup. It'd be two change of scenery guys like somebody stated on here. Saunders gets hurt a lot and that article made it sound like he's lazy. Another fourth outfielder type.

Funny timing on this... Will Carroll retweeted this about 35mins ago, though the original tweet was from March 9th.

 

Will Carroll retweeted

Jason A. Churchill ‏@ProspectInsider Mar 9

Hearing Michael Saunders is a name that has been discussed in Dayan Viciedo talks with White Sox.

 

interesting but confusing. so as a poster mention, it will be a chg of scenes

for Saunders and his salary which is 12. the rtn will be DV and his 4+mil.

 

is this right?

Have you looked at Saunders' stats? It hardly would be a coup. It'd be two change of scenery guys like somebody stated on here. Saunders gets hurt a lot and that article made it sound like he's lazy. Another fourth outfielder type.

 

Michael Saunders is a guy who is not a terrible hitter. He is an average to above average defender. Those are two things that Dayan Viciedo is not, and they comprise most of the things baseball players do. It'd be a damn coup.

Have you looked at Saunders' stats? It hardly would be a coup. It'd be two change of scenery guys like somebody stated on here. Saunders gets hurt a lot and that article made it sound like he's lazy. Another fourth outfielder type.

 

Yeah, in fact his stats are all I'm going off of. Haven't seen him play much.

 

Let's see:

 

2014:

Saunders: .273/.341/.450 (126 wRC+)

Viciedo: .231/.304/.405 (88 wRC+)

 

Steamer 2015 Projections (all we have so far):

Saunders: .244/.324/.405 (110 wRC+)

Viciedo: .253/.304/.435 (104 wRC+)

 

So the 2014 numbers are not even remotely close, and Steamer projects substantial negative regression from Saunders as well as substantial improvement from Viciedo, and yet Saunders STILL comes out ahead.

 

I'm also willing to bet that Saunders will play much better defense. And also he's left-handed. No idea how this wouldn't be a huge win for us.

 

EDIT: I mean, we're not even sure we're going to tender Viciedo a contract, right?

Edited November 7, 201411 yr by Eminor3rd

Michael Saunders is a guy who is not a terrible hitter. He is an average to above average defender. Those are two things that Dayan Viciedo is not, and they comprise most of the things baseball players do. It'd be a damn coup.

 

with respect. I do not know about that.

 

I too looked up the stats and profile. I only saw that he is arb time and bats

lefty.

 

the power numbers are less than DV. if seattle is dumping Saunders why

if it is not a salary dump.

Yeah, in fact his stats are all I'm going off of. Haven't seen him play much.

 

Let's see:

 

2014:

Saunders: .273/.341/.450 (126 wRC+)

Viciedo: .231/.304/.405 (88 wRC+)

 

Steamer 2015 Projections (all we have so far):

Saunders: .244/.324/.405 (110 wRC+)

Viciedo: .253/.304/.435 (104 wRC+)

 

So the 2014 numbers are not even remotely close, and Steamer projects substantial negative regression from Saunders as well as substantial improvement from Viciedo, and yet Saunders STILL comes out ahead.

 

I'm also willing to bet that Saunders will play much better defense. And also he's left-handed. No idea how this wouldn't be a huge win for us.

 

EDIT: I mean, we're not even sure we're going to tender Viciedo a contract, right?

 

a good point with the stats added. many thanks.

 

however how does the power stats look like?

a good point with the stats added. many thanks.

 

however how does the power stats look like?

 

Looks like he's a 15-ish homer/25-ish double guy over a full year.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playe...amp;position=OF

the power numbers are less than DV.

 

Well, the homers are less, but you'll notice that Saunders actually has a higher SLG.

 

Which really just underscores the issue with Viciedo, which is that he doesn't hit enough to take advantage of his power. He clearly HAS more power than Saunders, but it actually PLAYS lower.

It is funny how you continue to use Steamer, yet when I used it for someone else, it was pretty much dismissed.

 

It's funnier how it doesn't matter how many times I try to clarify what I said to you about Steamer, you continue to make this conclusion.

 

For everyone's benefit, here are the quotes you're misapplying along with some context:

 

As I stated but you just ignored, if he put up his career average, we all would be happy. Just pointed out, since fangraphs WAR was so important to you, that their page is projecting a pretty nice season next year. So if you are going to use Fangraphs, you really shouldn't pick and choose which numbers to use. For his career his wRC+ is 125.

 

Steamer is just the first system to come out for the coming year -- ZiPS is almost universally considered better, and Marcel is usually factored in as well, heavy-handed as that system is. Anyone at FanGraphs would recommend using several systems for context, so it isn't necessarily true to cite Steamer and say "See! FanGraphs says he's good!"

 

It is just funny that you throw out Steamer in order to say something makes sense, but when I throw out the same, "theres something better than Steamer". The only reason I used it is because you did earlier.

 

Just be consistent.

 

Steamer isn't useless nor infallible, it's a point of reference. Especially in the instance of some uncommon statistical anomaly, such as Victor Martinez's random career year, it's best to use multiple points of reference. I'm not telling you you shouldn't use it, but rather pointing out that Steamer is not akin to some sort of "FanGraphs official stance" on a player's future performance like you seemed to be implying.

 

Now please stop claiming I said Steamer cannot be used. The only reason I said anything was because of your line that I bolded above, because it's a nonsensical thing to say. That's all. I wasn't even arguing with the point you were making USING Steamer (which was that it saw Victor Martinez as better than his career averages), only the part where you said "if you want to use FanGraphs, don't pick and choose stats."

Edited November 7, 201411 yr by Eminor3rd

This is off topic a little bit, but i'm appalled at DeAza's improvement once he got to a team with a good manager. WTF. I mean if DeAza was going to do that we could have kept him another five years.

Something has to give with our team, folks. Something may be amiss.

 

Anyhow, Saunders for Viciedo might be a decent flip flop; we shall see.

Well, the homers are less, but you'll notice that Saunders actually has a higher SLG.

 

Which really just underscores the issue with Viciedo, which is that he doesn't hit enough to take advantage of his power. He clearly HAS more power than Saunders, but it actually PLAYS lower.

 

good point and I didn't even think of that.

 

nice

This is off topic a little bit, but i'm appalled at DeAza's improvement once he got to a team with a good manager. WTF. I mean if DeAza was going to do that we could have kept him another five years.

Something has to give with our team, folks. Something may be amiss.

 

Anyhow, Saunders for Viciedo might be a decent flip flop; we shall see.

 

I honestly think he just got unlucky with De Aza. His true talent was always better than his 2014 performance with us. We just kept waiting for the other shoe to drop and for him to start playing better, and he never did. Then he got to Baltimore.

 

Annoying, definitely.

It's funnier how it doesn't matter how many times I try to clarify what I said to you about Steamer, you continue to make this conclusion.

 

For everyone's benefit, here are the quotes you're misapplying along with some context:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now please stop claiming I said Steamer cannot be used. The only reason I said anything was because of your line that I bolded above, because it's a nonsensical thing to say. That's all. I wasn't even arguing with the point you were making USING Steamer (which was that it saw Victor Martinez as better than his career averages), only the part where you said "if you want to use FanGraphs, don't pick and choose stats."

 

Why don't you show the post you actually dismissed my Steamer numbers. Feeky uses Steamer. You have used it a few times. The only time I see you fighting against it is when it says Victor Martinez should be really good next year and it goes against your argument that 36 year olds shouldn't be playing major league baseball.

Edited November 7, 201411 yr by Dick Allen

This is off topic a little bit, but i'm appalled at DeAza's improvement once he got to a team with a good manager. WTF. I mean if DeAza was going to do that we could have kept him another five years.

Something has to give with our team, folks. Something may be amiss.

 

Anyhow, Saunders for Viciedo might be a decent flip flop; we shall see.

 

Here was what Alejandro De Aza did in June of 2014. I do not recall which team he was playing for at the time or who his manager was, but I believe it was the Chicago White Sox and Robin Ventura.

 

.365/.423/.540/.962, 71 plate appearances

 

Here is what he did with the Baltimore Orioles.

 

.293/.341/.537/.878, 89 plate appearances

This is off topic a little bit, but i'm appalled at DeAza's improvement once he got to a team with a good manager. WTF. I mean if DeAza was going to do that we could have kept him another five years.

Something has to give with our team, folks. Something may be amiss.

 

Anyhow, Saunders for Viciedo might be a decent flip flop; we shall see.

 

I honestly don't think it has anything to do with managers but a little known factor.

that is slump. batting slump happens all the time, the player need to continue

to work thru them.

This is off topic a little bit, but i'm appalled at DeAza's improvement once he got to a team with a good manager. WTF. I mean if DeAza was going to do that we could have kept him another five years.

Something has to give with our team, folks. Something may be amiss.

 

You must remember having had this conversation weeks ago.

You have to remember how you were showed numbers that contradicted what you are saying.

You have to wonder why you are bringing it up again.

Here was what Alejandro De Aza did in June of 2014. I do not recall which team he was playing for at the time or who his manager was, but I believe it was the Chicago White Sox and Robin Ventura.

 

.365/.423/.540/.962, 71 plate appearances

 

Here is what he did with the Baltimore Orioles.

 

.293/.341/.537/.878, 89 plate appearances

Yes. Thank you.