Balta1701 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 2, 2015 -> 03:30 PM) It seems like Christie is hedging in order to clarify that he's not talking about Measles, he's talking about the terrible HPV vaccine, which is fighting back God's decision to punish women for being women. /sarcasm Unfortunately it also made people look at his record, which includes vetoing a bill that would have provided the flu vaccine to health care workers in New Jersey (not forced them to take it, just provided it to them so that they would transmit it to fewer patients, saving the state money in the long term) and a 2009 letter to an anti-vaxxer person or group saying that because of New Jersey's high rates of autism he stands with people who want to choose whether to vaccinate their children. That plus him locking up that health care worker assisting with ebola is not exactly a positive record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 2, 2015 -> 03:40 PM) Unfortunately it also made people look at his record, which includes vetoing a bill that would have provided the flu vaccine to health care workers in New Jersey (not forced them to take it, just provided it to them so that they would transmit it to fewer patients, saving the state money in the long term) and a 2009 letter to an anti-vaxxer person or group saying that because of New Jersey's high rates of autism he stands with people who want to choose whether to vaccinate their children. That plus him locking up that health care worker assisting with ebola is not exactly a positive record. Doesn't the flu vaccine have a 50/50 chance of not being effective? And what's the risk of getting the flu to begin with? I'm sure NJ has a fair amount of health care workers. And is that just public health care workers, or all of them? Why should NJ subsidize that cost when private health care employers should be footing that bill? Not sure i'd be so quick to judge that decision without more information. Edited February 2, 2015 by Jenksismybitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Feb 2, 2015 -> 05:29 PM) Doesn't the flu vaccine have a 50/50 chance of not being effective? And what's the risk of getting the flu to begin with? I'm sure NJ has a fair amount of health care workers. And is that just public health care workers, or all of them? Why should NJ subsidize that cost when private health care employers should be footing that bill? Not sure i'd be so quick to judge that decision without more information. The risk of getting the flu is not extreme, but its a lot higher in unvaccinated health care workers because they're regularly exposed to symptomatic people, and that would make it likely for them to both catch and transmit the flu. They're also exposed to more at-risk people, including infants and the elderly, and thus if they are contagious they have the ability to be lethal. The average death toll from the flu per year is 36,000 nationwide. There is a reason why we didn't take people's focus on scary ebola last fall seriously when they similarly aren't concerned about the much more impactful flu. The NIH estimates that a single dollar spent on providing the flu vaccine saves $2.60 in total costs. That dollar amount is larger in the case of health care workers - this study found that the benefits of a single vaccinated hospital worker returned $40 in savings (note the change in units there, I don't know how to convert between the standards used for reporting by the two studies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Rand Paul also went full loony today with the statement that lots of people have told him vaccines cause profound mental problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Feb 2, 2015 -> 01:56 PM) That's the part where I am unclear. They must have some allowance for waivers, because some kids do have real maladies that make SOME vaccinations dangerous. But I don't know what the waiver policy is. I'm tempted to email the school and ask. One of the things I've read today is that it's always been fairly common for there to be a religious objection to vaccination tolerated just because if you have a >90% immunization rate the herd immunity would still protect those kids and even though the schools would probably win it wasn't worth the money fighting the lawsuit to get those last few kids immunized because the group was so small. Some court cases have still held that schools don't have to include the religious objection but that hasn't been tested in every state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Our thoughts are also with the measles-ravaged country America. I hope we are screening them before they come to Africa.— Elnathan John (@elnathan) February 1, 2015 (Nigerian based satirist) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Measles has the highest immunization rate required to stop spread at 92%. That means it's required in any enclave. So the national average can be 92%, but if you are in a particularly anti-vaxxer area, it will spread like wildfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Jan 31, 2015 -> 04:02 PM) No mention of the vast amount of illegal immigrants coming in who are bringing with them these diseases? That is an excellent point. We should offer vaccinations to anyone who wants them so that Americans can decide to not vaccinate their kids. Of course these parents are also assuming that their kids will never travel internationally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 By the way, if you know any neighbor/relative/friend who genuinely doesn't know much about this, just has heard hearsay, and wants to know more to make an informed decision rather than watching me make fun of idiotic republican presidential candidates, this episode of NOVA from last fall on the vaccination issue is spectacularly done. It's not just a rant, it looks at where this round of skepticism came from, some actual cases where vaccines hurt people and what was done about that, how vaccinations relate to other diseases, where these "my kid suffered brain damage from vaccines" fit into actual medical diagnoses, and the autism paper controversy. Well balanced, detailed, chock full of experts, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 2, 2015 -> 01:18 PM) However, if the disease was pretty much eradicated in the US it had to come from somewhere, not saying it had t be undocumented people but that is more likely. How many Americans travel overseas? How many visitors do we have flying into the US every day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Ben Carson: Of Course People Should Have To Get Vaccines Dr. Ben Carson, a former pediatric neurosurgeon and potential 2016 presidential contender, broke from some of his fellow Republicans on Monday by saying that strict vaccination policies should be in place, even for those who have religious or philosophical objections. "Although I strongly believe in individual rights and the rights of parents to raise their children as they see fit, I also recognize that public health and public safety are extremely important in our society," Carson said in a statement to BuzzFeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 3, 2015 -> 11:49 AM) Ben Carson: Of Course People Should Have To Get Vaccines It should be a requirement for things like entry to public schools, but i'm not sure I can get behind a forced vaccination program if that's what he's suggesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 It should be a requirement for entry into public spaces. The latest outbreak happened at Disney, not at a school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 QUOTE (Tex @ Feb 2, 2015 -> 07:35 PM) How many Americans travel overseas? How many visitors do we have flying into the US every day? Not sure of the answers there. The real question is....where did the virus come from then? Vaccinated Americans traveling overseas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Unvaccinated americans traveling overseas. Unvaccinated foreign visitors. Unvaccinated immigrants. Vaccinated Americans where the vaccination wasn't effective (it's not 100%). Could be any of those, especially at an international tourist destination like Disney. Some googling shows that measles doesn't have any known non-human reservoirs (unlike e.g. ebola), so theoretically we could eliminate the disease entirely like we did with small pox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 3, 2015 -> 01:46 PM) Not sure of the answers there. The real question is....where did the virus come from then? Vaccinated Americans traveling overseas? In 2011 a fully vaccinated person developed a case of the measles and spread it to another 88 people as one of the first "anti-vaxxer measles outbreaks" in recent memory. That transmission including getting 2 people sick who had been vaccinated. It does happen, that was an example of "waning immunity" which seems to happen in some cases. That outbreak in 2011 was in New York City, and measles has been slowly burning underground in this country among anti-vax groups for >5 years. No reason whatsoever why we should assume "undocument immigrants" are the most likely arrival point for any infection without evidence. Not many of them cross the Mexican border and wind up in NYC within an incubation period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 3, 2015 -> 12:46 PM) Not sure of the answers there. The real question is....where did the virus come from then? Vaccinated Americans traveling overseas? In one case, an unvaccinated Amish person came back from a missionary trip and introduced it to the very unvaccinated Amish enclave in Ohio, it then spread like crazy. People travel all over. Especially the wealthy, as is the case here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Oh, and according to World Health Organization data, Mexico has a 99% measles vaccination rate, compared to 92% in the U.S. the only country in Central America that doesn't have a higher measles vaccination rate than the U.S. is Costa Rica. Therefore, it's more likely that Mexico should blame the U.S. for a measles outbreak than the other way around, and blaming immigrants across that border has no factual basis whatsoever. It is simply being assumed that those countries have a lower vaccination rate because...well, I'll stop there and let people fill in that blank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 I kinda freaked out watching WGN morning news this morning. They did an update on the vaccine outbreak and Obama pushback, then totally did a "republican response" (rand paul) "democrat response" (clinton) as if this is a debate. I'd write them an email if I didn't just already write this to a message board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 QUOTE (StrangeSox @ Feb 3, 2015 -> 12:41 PM) It should be a requirement for entry into public spaces. The latest outbreak happened at Disney, not at a school. How do you plan to enforce that? Do we have to carry around papers showing we've been vaccinated? I know some people that think that type of requirement is intrusive... edit: And would you shut the border to anyone that didn't have said papers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Feb 3, 2015 -> 02:16 PM) How do you plan to enforce that? Do we have to carry around papers showing we've been vaccinated? I know some people that think that type of requirement is intrusive... If a place like Disney wanted to institute that requirement...would they have the right to do so as a private business? I have trouble saying that they shouldn't have that right. If this became a major issue with constant outbreaks among kids, Disney is going to have dead children on their hands. That will be terrible for business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 3, 2015 -> 01:18 PM) If a place like Disney wanted to institute that requirement...would they have the right to do so as a private business? I have trouble saying that they shouldn't have that right. If this became a major issue with constant outbreaks among kids, Disney is going to have dead children on their hands. That will be terrible for business. They should yes. I'm sure the ACLU would scream discrimination, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Feb 3, 2015 -> 07:19 PM) They should yes. I'm sure the ACLU would scream discrimination, however. On what grounds? I've never heard the ACLU view "unvaccinated" as a protected class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrangeSox Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 QUOTE (bmags @ Feb 3, 2015 -> 01:16 PM) I kinda freaked out watching WGN morning news this morning. They did an update on the vaccine outbreak and Obama pushback, then totally did a "republican response" (rand paul) "democrat response" (clinton) as if this is a debate. I'd write them an email if I didn't just already write this to a message board. It's pretty awful that vaccinations are becoming a partisan political issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Feb 3, 2015 -> 02:19 PM) They should yes. I'm sure the ACLU would scream discrimination, however. Just to answer your other question...anyone entering this country with a legal visa is required to have their vaccination status examined. It obviously doesn't stop undocumented...but since Mexico's measles vaccination rate is better than ours, that seems like it should not be nearly as important of a focus as getting our own house in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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