Fire Jose Abreu

[witesoxfan]

Yeah, yeah, contracts, shmontracts. People are asking for the firing of Ventura because of a hard spell, some idiot is even suggesting that the Sox fire Don Cooper, the long time acclaimed pitching coach. Why not fire the guy who is at fault?

 

This mothertrucker was supposed to hit. That's why the White Sox brought him in. All he's done is regress to a replacement level player who occasionally hits a bomb now and then. "Oh but his approach" what the f*** does that mean? He hasn't done anything particularly meaningful this season. He's at -0.4 WAR for the year, which means that the Sox could have likely run Travis Ishikawa or Andy Wilkins at 1B and been just fine. Hell, Frank Thomas or Fred McGriff might do the job still too. I heard Barry Bonds won a home run competition amongst his players in Marlins camp, he'd likely add more too. Better yet, let's bring back the legend, Chris Widger, to man 1B for us. I'm sure catching took a toll on his body, but if he could play 1B as opposed to catcher, he'd hit .330 with 30 dingers.

 

---

 

Now do we understand how irrational it is to say "fire this guy" or "this guy sucks" as a blanket statement? Do you think Robin Ventura planned on his best hitter having the worst season of his career? Do you think he went to his relievers and said "hey, allow the first 3 guys to get on, get an out, let a couple score, so we lose a close 1 run game so I don't look as bad and can blame it on bad luck?" This is f***ing baseball. Weird s*** happens all the time. There are like 100 more games to go and no one in the Central, at this point, wants to win it. Let it play out. The Sox are actually in it and have a decent team. Maybe they'll be the lucky team to lose the Giants in the World Series this year (after the Giants defeat the Cubs after the Cubs win 113 games in the regular season).

 

 

[caulfield12]

That's all fine and good, but just look at all the adversity the other three teams leading us in the AL Central Division standings have gone through.

 

Kendrys Morales is hitting MUCH worse than Abreu, for just one example. Did the Indians plan on having their second best player miss the first two months of the season? At least Abreu has a presence in the line-up that Lonnie Chisenhall, Rajai Davis or Tyler Naquin don't. (I remember this was one of many EARLY defenses of the Manny Ramirez acquisition in late 2010.)

 

Did the Tigers plan on having Daniel Norris get cancer, Anibal Sanchez getting bumped from the rotation, Cameron Maybin being hurt (had to play Gose, mostly, in the early going) and their bullpen, despite all the new additions/spending, laying an egg? On Justin Upton being MUCH WORSE than Jose Abreu? Or JD Martinez looking merely an adequate player and not an All-Star? Jose Iglesias hitting in the 220s instead of the 320's?

 

Wow. We lost Petricka and Austin Jackson/Cabrera missed last weekend.

 

Fire Robin Ventura is the diametrical opposite of a blanket statement, if you've watched this team over the last 4+ years under Ventura. If you're deliberating seeing Robin with rose-colored glasses, that's not a helpful solution by any stretch of the imagination, either.

Edited June 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Worst MLB Records since September 15th, 2012

 

1. Houston -81 (but playoff appearance finally)

2. Rockies -79

3. Twins -74

4. Marlins -71

5. White Sox -69

6. Phillies -68

7. DBacks -47

8. Padres -42

Brewers -42

10. Reds -40

11. Braves -28

12. Mariners -12

 

Cubs +5

 

 

How many of those teams have kept their managers during that entire time??? Replace 2 or more managers?

Edited June 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

Fire Robin Ventura is the diametrical opposite of a blanket statement, if you've watched this team over the last 4+ years under Ventura. If you're deliberating seeing Robin with rose-colored glasses, that's not a helpful solution by any stretch of the imagination, either.

 

blah blah blah with with the first part. Players not performing, players non-existent, the Sox haven't been hit with injuries, yada yada, the Sox are underperforming.

 

However, I have watched Robin Ventura manage the last 4 years. Compared to a guy like Ozzie Guillen, he has been a breath of fresh air. He pays attention, he manages by the book, almost too religiously, he controls his clubhouse. If the clubhouse feels that they have overwhelmed their manager at this point, then someone is going to be let go. At some point though, as a manager, you have to know your employees and what they can do.

 

Caulfield, have you ever been a manager in any manner in your entire life? As in, you could hire and fire. It's not that I try and be an "elitist" in saying that I am a manager now (because it sucks), but I've been there, and when someone is not doing something you want, and you have to talk to them, it sucks. Imagine doing that with 200x the ego.

 

Fire Robin Ventura and then bring in Rick Renteria so we can what? Win more? Maybe Jose should hit better. Maybe Albers should pitch better. Maybe Robertson shouldn't get lit up with a 6 run lead. But naturally, that's Ventura's fault.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Yes, but I suppose it will be belittled because it was an AmeriCorps National Volunteer program as well as hiring/firing summer camp counselors for Youth Volunteers Corps of America.

 

Of course, your argument was the same exact one that Republicans used to attack Obama with in 2008.

 

Community organizer, never had run his own business, law professor but not dean or in charge of a department...so, by your analogy, you would pick H. Ross Perot, Donald Trump, Herman Cain or Carly Fiorina over Obama.

 

(Yes, I realize, a digression, but the point still stands.)

 

And yes, it's not easy. My philosophy was always to give everyone an opportunity and second opportunity and even a third. I thought if I worked harder than everyone else and "empowered them" to make their own decisions and have more autonomy, things would run much more smoothly. That wasn't the case. Sometimes managers can get taken advantage of if they're not strict enough or "treat others how they would like to be treated," because that goes along with the assumption everyone has the same work ethic or attitude/professionalism as you do. Some workers will just clock in for a paycheck and couldn't care less about anything beyond that.

Many don't want to take initiative, but demand to be told what to do and don't thrive in ambiguity.

 

I'll just say this...I watched Jeff Banister manage the GreenJackets for 142 games and take essentially the same talent from the year before and win a championship with those players. The guy is a combination of Tywin Lannister, a real hard ass military drill sergeant, but his players loved playing for him because he demanded and commanded their respect, and they truly believed if they bought into his program that it would result in winning and all the sacrifices would have been worth it. He changed the atmosphere in that Rangers' organization nearly overnight. When someone goes through cancer, almost loses a leg, fights their entire life to get to the big leagues just to get a single at-bat (hit off Dan Petry), then you can be sure they understand what it's like to not be one of the most talented players. What it means to struggle and need for your coaching career to pay off, all those years in the minors...for the eventual payoff 20 years later at the big league level. You gain an appreciation for the opportunity going through all those struggles that Ventura will never understand.

 

He's one of the most charismatic people I've ever been around (the other two were both billionaires on our board in KC, Tom Bloch, former CEO of H&R Block and Adele Hall, whose husband was the CEO at Hallmark Cards), relentlessly positive and always supportive of his players. Ned Yost is like that now, and Clint Hurdle with the Pirates, same thing. Not only that, but 20 years ago...he didn't care about statistics at all. The last five years, though, the Pirates totally changed the way the game is played with their shifting/pitching to contact philosophy predicated around strong defense. Fifty year old baseball "rats" adapted and evolved (unlike, say Scioscia). For Hurdle, his career as a manager was on the line if he didn't figure out a better way to get results.

 

I haven't seen very much evidence of that "inventiveness" and creativity with Robin. It's almost 100% by the book. And he figured out how to get the most out of a 17 year old Jose Guillen, who could barely order a McDonald's hamburguesa on his own without help at that time. He took that kid, got him focused and helped get him to become a team leader (especially of the Latin players). Months earlier, he was almost kicked out of the Pirates' system for good because of a violent knife confrontation with another minor leaguer in Bradenton. But Banister saw the good in him and was willing to fight to give him at least another chance.

Edited June 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[Y2Jimmy0]

blah blah blah with with the first part. Players not performing, players non-existent, the Sox haven't been hit with injuries, yada yada, the Sox are underperforming.

 

However, I have watched Robin Ventura manage the last 4 years. Compared to a guy like Ozzie Guillen, he has been a breath of fresh air. He pays attention, he manages by the book, almost too religiously, he controls his clubhouse. If the clubhouse feels that they have overwhelmed their manager at this point, then someone is going to be let go. At some point though, as a manager, you have to know your employees and what they can do.

 

Caulfield, have you ever been a manager in any manner in your entire life? As in, you could hire and fire. It's not that I try and be an "elitist" in saying that I am a manager now (because it sucks), but I've been there, and when someone is not doing something you want, and you have to talk to them, it sucks. Imagine doing that with 200x the ego.

 

Fire Robin Ventura and then bring in Rick Renteria so we can what? Win more? Maybe Jose should hit better. Maybe Albers should pitch better. Maybe Robertson shouldn't get lit up with a 6 run lead. But naturally, that's Ventura's fault.

 

 

This is basically what I've been saying. I haven't seen you around in awhile, wite. Welcome back.

[Kyyle23]

Fire Wite.

 

 

Fite me Wite

[CB2.0]

Personally - I couldn't care less if Robin is kept or fired. I seriously doubt it would make one bit of difference either way because this team is incomplete anyway.

 

Having said - In reading the thoughts expressed by those here in the "Fire Robin" camp; I can recall very few that say they want to fire Robin because Abreu isn't hitting, Robertson blew a save, clubhouse atmosphere, etc.

 

Generally, the reasons that are cited have to do with Robin simply not being very good at his own job - MANAGING. There is really no disputing he's pulled some serious head scratchers over the last 4 seasons and certainly many of them have cost the team games. Enough to mean a difference in making the playoffs? No. But possibly enough to have an effect on the team's morale and CERTAINLY enough to effect the morale of the fans.

Edited June 8, 2016 by CB2.0