YASNY Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 01:16 PM) If we put "God" at the forefront of America, why have the protections in the Constitution for freedom of religion at all? Also, there are 250 million Americans (give or take), and depending on how detailed you get, anywhere from at least a few dozen to as many as 250 million different ideas of what "God" is. Seems pretty arrogant to say that your God should be at the forefront. Anyway, just to clarify, I've been a churchgoer (on and off at times) my whole life. Lots of great things can come from a belief in God or some other system of faith. I just want to make sure that everyone gets the same protections in this country regardless of their version of God, or lack thereof. Your statement just felt to me like an insult to anyone not sharing your particular belief system. People are free to believe in whatever they want to believe in. I'm not going to get into a theological discussion. I believe what I believe and do so unashamedly. If this country continues to turn it's back on God, we will go down the s***ter. Now I need some sleep. Have a good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 12:17 PM) Central and South America(and much of Africa for that matter) are populated primarily by uneducated, unsophisticated people that would believe in anything someone with a sandwich and sentiments of hope tells them to believe in. The only figures that matter are those taken from mostly developed countries. So, because they're uneducated, they're unintelligent and can't think for themselves? Got it. :headshake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:17 PM) Central and South America(and much of Africa for that matter) are populated primarily by uneducated, unsophisticated people that would believe in anything someone with a sandwich and sentiments of hope tells them to believe in. The only figures that matter are those taken from mostly developed countries. No offense, but wow is that arrogant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 07:17 PM) Central and South America(and much of Africa for that matter) are populated primarily by uneducated, unsophisticated people that would believe in anything someone with a sandwich and sentiments of hope tells them to believe in. The only figures that matter are those taken from mostly developed countries. aree you serious? since when do people need a formal education to follow religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:22 PM) No offense, but wow is that arrogant. It's not arrogant, it's the truth. You spend years and years sending missionaries down to these countries where people have no food, no rights no shelter, etc. And show them some kindness by providing food, medicine, etc.(which is a great thing and kudos to those respective religious groups for their generosity) and they will believe in whatever religion you teach them, because you've given them the only hope they have. Why is it that all these countries are churning out huge number of catholics/christians, but no buddhists or hindus or taoists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:21 PM) So, because they're uneducated, they're unintelligent and can't think for themselves? Got it. :headshake Nope, that's not the issue here at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(bmags @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:23 PM) aree you serious? since when do people need a formal education to follow religion? They obviously don't. I don't see your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthSideSox72 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(YASNY @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:21 PM) People are free to believe in whatever they want to believe in. I'm not going to get into a theological discussion. I believe what I believe and do so unashamedly. If this country continues to turn it's back on God, we will go down the s***ter. Now I need some sleep. Have a good day. Fair enough. It seems we agree on the freedom of people to believe as they choose, and that's what it is most important for the country, I think. Enjoy your rest, and you have a good day also, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 07:25 PM) It's not arrogant, it's the truth. You spend years and years sending missionaries down to these countries where people have no food, no rights no shelter, etc. And show them some kindness by providing food, medicine, etc.(which is a great thing and kudos to those respective religious groups for their generosity) and they will believe in whatever religion you teach them, because you've given them the only hope they have. Why is it that all these countries are churning out huge number of catholics/christians, but no buddhists or hindus or taoists? "You spend years" who the hell are you talking to? unless you have been a missionary, i find this talk rather dense and ignorant...i know missionaries and their experience is far different than the one you present. I'd trust their word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(bmags @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:34 PM) "You spend years" who the hell are you talking to? unless you have been a missionary, i find this talk rather dense and ignorant...i know missionaries and their experience is far different than the one you present. I'd trust their word. I was talking to Southsider, who I believe made the original post. I went to 22 years of catholic schools, I'm supremely confident I have a pretty good idea what missionary work has involved over the centuries(Unless what they tell you about missionaries is all lies, which I suppose wouldn't be the first time). Enough of a working knowledge to make the comment I made. And, if you disagree so vehemently, please share with the class why you disagree with what I said regarding missionaries. It would make it alot easier to respond to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(YASNY @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 12:21 PM) If this country continues to turn it's back on God, we will go down the s***ter. Given the abundance of immoral/unethical behavior in our country already, I'd hate to see how much further downhill it goes when nobody fears divine justice. Edited January 10, 2006 by WCSox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:41 PM) Given the abundance of immoral/unethical behavior in our country already, I'd hate to see how much further downhill it goes when nobodys fears divine justice. Apparently you missed this fact in the countless other threads in which this myth has been exposed--- In this country, EVERY MAJOR VIOLENT CRIME STATISTIC IS IN DECLINE. If you have a better benchmark for measuring the "morality" of a nation, I'd like to hear about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 (edited) QUOTE(bmags @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 11:01 AM) what in the??? he was saying unfortunately for the poster that the facts don't back up that claim... That would be what I was saying, the unfortunately was not directed in any way at religion, only at the content of the post, which I believe is unsupported by the facts. I apologize if that came across wrong. Edited January 10, 2006 by Balta1701 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 12:45 PM) Apparently you missed this fact in the countless other threads in which this myth has been exposed--- In this country, EVERY MAJOR VIOLENT CRIME STATISTIC IS IN DECLINE. If you have a better benchmark for measuring the "morality" of a nation, I'd like to hear about it. Funny how you single out violent crime. What about divorce and marital infidelity? Has corporate crime declined over the past 20 years? :rolly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:48 PM) Funny how you single out violent crime. What about divorce and marital infidelity? Has corporate crime declined over the past 20 years? :rolly Divorce is not a crime, and I really doubt infidelity rates are any higher now than they used to be. The rates are probably higher amongst women, because women in the 1950's for example, would have had to fear for their lives(in a manner of speaking) would they ever be found cheating on their husbands or doing anything that might lead to their husbands divorcing them. I don't know much about corporate crime rates, but since you seem to be inclined to believe they have increased, it'd be great if you could post some figures that would back up your claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 12:54 PM) Divorce is not a crime, I wasn't talking about crime. I was talking about immoral/unethical behavior. Go back and read my post. I don't know much about corporate crime rates, but since you seem to be inclined to believe they have increased, it'd be great if you could post some figures that would back up your claim. I never said that corporate crime has definitely increased over the past 20 years. And talk about speculation... and I really doubt infidelity rates are any higher now than they used to be. :rolly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 02:58 PM) I never said that corporate crime has definitely increased over the past 20 years. And talk about speculation... :rolly 1) And I never said you did. Are you that hypocritical, or just that excited to be in an argument? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 01:04 PM) 1) And I never said you did. Are you that hypocritical, or just that excited to be in an argument? That's funny... you're the one who began arguing with me on the divine justice topic. Talk about hypocritical... :headshake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 07:40 PM) I was talking to Southsider, who I believe made the original post. I went to 22 years of catholic schools, I'm supremely confident I have a pretty good idea what missionary work has involved over the centuries(Unless what they tell you about missionaries is all lies, which I suppose wouldn't be the first time). Enough of a working knowledge to make the comment I made. And, if you disagree so vehemently, please share with the class why you disagree with what I said regarding missionaries. It would make it alot easier to respond to i don't deny that there are some missionaries that are corrupt...but what your saying is that the poor uneducated people don't genuinely believe what they're being taught, and i find that arrogant and untrue. Is it that hard to believe that people could actually believe in a religion. For instance, in ethiopia, there are three religions...the orthodox christian church, Islam, and the "reformed" christian church...the orthodox Christian church is extremely corrupt and preaches near hate against women. The Government is run by Muslims who refuse to allow churches to be built. So the ever growing population of the reformist Christians is being purposely stalled because it threatens both. The missionaries there are helping the people set up places of worship and the people are not going there merely for handouts. That's absurd. but then again, i'm not dealing with catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 03:07 PM) That's funny... you're the one who began arguing with me on the divine justice topic. Talk about hypocritical... :headshake You're missing the point, again, and you've moved into posting rebuttals that make no sense whatsoever. Have fun with that, and please pass the pro-religion baton to someone capable of debating this without the aforementioned b.s. You're not Juggernaut's relative by chance, are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 01:25 PM) It's not arrogant, it's the truth. You spend years and years sending missionaries down to these countries where people have no food, no rights no shelter, etc. And show them some kindness by providing food, medicine, etc.(which is a great thing and kudos to those respective religious groups for their generosity) and they will believe in whatever religion you teach them, because you've given them the only hope they have. Why is it that all these countries are churning out huge number of catholics/christians, but no buddhists or hindus or taoists? It must be all of the Islamic missonaries giving out sandwiches that is making it the fastest growing religion on earth. Your statements are ignorant at best. I understand that you are a "recovering" catholic and for whatever reason you feel its in the best interest of everyone to s*** on Catholics and the church in general but find a new act. The only way you know about missonaries is if you travelled with them, and worked directly with them. Just because they glossed over it in class doesnt mean that you have the working knowledge of how it works. And this is my 16 years of Catholic Schools telling me this. 22 years of catholic schools huh, you must have your doctorate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 i don't deny that there are some missionaries that are corrupt...but what your saying is that the poor uneducated people don't genuinely believe what they're being taught, OK, being respectful and all, but what I meant is almost exactly the opposite of what you took from it. And I didnt once mention anything about missionaries being corrupt, I have no idea where you're getting this from. Is it that hard to believe that people could actually believe in a religion. Nope, not at all, people have been creating them to explain the unexplained since the beginning of time. For instance, in ethiopia, there are three religions...the orthodox christian church, Islam, and the "reformed" christian church...the orthodox Christian church is extremely corrupt and preaches near hate against women. The Government is run by Muslims who refuse to allow churches to be built. So the ever growing population of the reformist Christians is being purposely stalled because it threatens both. The missionaries there are helping the people set up places of worship and the people are not going there merely for handouts. That's absurd. but then again, i'm not dealing with catholics. I'm not responding to this because I have no idea what it has to do with what weve been debating here. Not trying to be an ass, I just am not following you here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(Wong & Owens @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 01:12 PM) You're missing the point, again, and you've moved into posting rebuttals that make no sense whatsoever. Have fun with that, and please pass the pro-religion baton to someone capable of debating this without the aforementioned b.s. You're not Juggernaut's relative by chance, are you? Typical response from an anti-religious liberal whose brain in only capable of formulating ad hominem attacks. Have a nice day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 This f***ing holier-than-thou liberal bashing bulls*** you and a couple others keep pulling is getting f***ing old. At least find a new word for f***s sake. I'd get into this argument but only if what I actually said wasn't clouded by where people perceive my political sensibilities lie. It's so f***ing ridiculous. And before you sit there and throw it back on me, just keep in mind - I've respected lots of folks' opinions here, even if I've disagreed with them. That apparently is no longer even an option here. So who cares who's Godless and who isn't. You're all going to hell anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 10, 2006 Share Posted January 10, 2006 QUOTE(Rex Kickass @ Jan 10, 2006 -> 01:27 PM) This f***ing holier-than-thou liberal bashing bulls*** you and a couple others keep pulling is getting f***ing old. Yeah, I'm a real bastard for trying to argue that divine justice is an effective deterrent of immoral behavior. Damn me! Nobody's claiming to be holier than anybody. You're all going to hell anyway. :headshake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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