Look at Ray Ray Run

Think what you must about Hahn, but theres no chance he thought price and benetendi for Madrigal and Vaughn was the enticing offer he discussed.

This is nuts. Benetendi isnt worth more than the 45 million price is underwater. The sox would basically be throwing another 20 million into the deal by including madrigal or Vaughn. If they include both, those two are certainly more valuable than benetendi and we have to eat prices money? Lol. Price isnt worth either of those guys, not even close. You give me Eduardo rodriguez and Price and maybe we talk Madrigal but there would still need to be big money coming back to the sox and I dont trust them to spend it so pass.

Robert 3 years younger than Walker and had an OPS of about 1000000000 at the same level where Walker was fine but not great.

No Idea if this is even in the cards, but after reading the FG piece on Price and seeing they have him as 45 million underwater I'd love Eduardo Rodriguez and Price in a salary dump.

And Yes, Jerry has me very conflicted on him because I would love to work for a guy like him - which is how I judge most businesses - and honestly he seems like a great guy to those who work for him. That's a really honorable trait; I just wish he showed the same sense of loyalty and appreciation for the fans as he does his employees.

I will say this about Machado, I hope everyone silences their absurd "if other teams were involved" nonsense. Clearly, the Yankees, Dodgers, Rangers, Angels and on and on had plenty of money to spend. If they wanted Machado, they would have went out there and got him. Fact remains, a lot of teams didn't think Machado was worth the money he got, and I'm fine with that. I was more upset with how they handled the situation than I was with the end result.

This is where I think someone like Ricky Renteria does matter a tiny bit. Ricky is mentally challenged in terms of strategic managing, but it's hard to argue with the culture he breeds in the clubhouse. I am actually fine with Mazara, but only if it means they are going to use resources elsewhere. If they went cheap there just to be cheap, that kind of sucks.

Sure, but the difference between the HOF and not for Billy Pierce was the wins. He was every bit as good as Whitey Ford, but his team never got over the hump. The White Sox weren't miserable back then, but their offense wasn't good enough to support Billy's W/L record, and that was all that mattered back then. Billy came up ONE vote shy of the HOF. If he wins one title, or has 1 more 20 win season (say the season he was 15-10 with a 1.9 ERA!), he likely gets in. The margins for Billy making it and not was so slim, and his teams production is likely what cost him. Remember, there weren't 5 playoff teams then. I'm also not saying the White Sox were just as bad then as they are today.

I'm merely saying, if the Sox miss next year and make it the 2-3 years after, it's pretty much the same as the Astros making, then missing, and then making it 3 years in a row.

I will never enjoy horrible outfield defense. If you are a professional baseball player and you are a worst defender than I was, that's pretty embarrassing and I don't really enjoy watching that. It's the same reason I hate NL baseball, why are pitchers hitting? They aren't professional hitters.

Sure, but it doesn't change the premise that winning will always be more fun than losing. Billy Pierce was a great man; his team losing cost him a spot in the Hall of Fame. To listen to him talk about the White Sox throughout my childhood was always a treat; he had nothing negative to say about his time as a big leaguer or the team, but losing cost him the honor and praise he deserved. Losing has an impact on things, however small it may be in the grand scheme of life. I grew up loving the White Sox because of the respect they showed to someone like Billy; I admired their sense of family and loyalty. There are things I appreciate about the organization - their treatment of their own has always been positive - but there are also things I just hate in life and that's people who over promise and under deliver.

Come on, winning is always more fun than losing. Sports is about having fun. Losing to the degree this team has lost has been miserable; don't ask your fan base to suffer through that if you don't intend on rewarding them at the end of the tunnel when the light starts shining through. I don't know what year you played baseball through, but I can tell you that my years in which we won were certainly more fun than the years in which we lost. I developed bonds and relationships regardless, that I will have for life which is the point of this all, but it's nice to have a bond developed from success instead of failure.

I agree with this, but this is all for naught if they don't try to capitalize on these pieces. Watching Gio pitch was a thing of beauty and was very enjoyable. But we deserve that, and shouldn't be grateful for it. Sports don't effect me emotionally in a way that it brings me down or demoralizes me, but the joy that it brings during pennant runs and the time it fills during slower summer months is much more enjoyable than the opposite. I still talk about the Sox the same with my uncles and father; I still have season tickets with my uncle specifically, but it sucks watching Daniel Palka and Adam Engle and Dylan Covey. I don't know what to tell you, but I expect people to do their jobs and try to succeed to the same level I do.

I don't think all hope is lost; this team is lucky enough that amazingly their big trade pieces have almost all panned out. Kopech and Cease are TBD; but they are clearly high talent big leaguers with some longevity in their futures barring injury. Eloy and Moncada look like stars. Lopez looks like an, at worst, serviceable big league arm. Dunning is entirely TBD. Robert is like a walking statue of what a great baseball player should look like. This team isn't dead in the water because they have a lot of high end talent, but I'm losing face in the organization to maximize that talent. I'm still willing to give them another year, but I don't want to spend hours watching complete garbage again. Can't imagine how disappointing it would be to be in the Cubs position of possibly moving a HOF'er because they claim they can't afford him while having elite revenue numbers. Fans are being taken for a ride by ownerships league wide. Owners have never opened the books, and I can assure you it's for very good reason.

People who grow up don't care about their family and things they enjoy with their family anymore? Weird stuff. You spend hours on this message board, as do many of us, debating and arguing over something that only a child should care about according to you. The day sharing a common interest with your family and enjoying those moments - while wanting to have more of the successful ones - becomes something childish I will be long gone.

You're just wrong, but whatever makes you feel better. If your only view on ROI in life is monetary, then I feel sorry for you. Sports aren't the same to everyone; I spent my life playing and following the game with my father. It was the #1 thing we bonded over for 30 years. Maybe to you, that's nothing but to many those things matter. The Sox may not owe me, directly, anything... but as I said, I sure as hell can express my frustrations with a product that I've invested a lot of time and money into.

This isn't a movie. Comparing those two things is laughable. Baseball is a huge time investment. Fanhood for many is a lifetime of commitment and support to something that they have no control over. It's a community of like minded people; it's a family bond and memory creating activity. It's something to tell stories about for years with your father and grandfather. Movies are something you do to pass an afternoon; baseball is something you do to pass a lifetime.

Yeah, and they took something away about summer that I loved - enjoying White Sox baseball - for 4+ years under the guise that they had some grand plan. Those stars and scrubs teams could be so frustrating, but Jesus Christ at least they won 85 games, 88 games, 89 games. At least they put a sensible product on the damn field, even if the end result was disappointment. At least in August and September I had something interesting to watch. They hoarded the money, and have zero intention of investing it back into the organization. It was all BS. All the White Sox are going to do is return to the level they were once at, when in reality they should be exceeding that pay level because they just saved over 100 million by doing this rebuild.

ha, I've always been critical when criticism is warranted. The one thing I've learned in my life, and taught everyone who has worked for me, is to under promise and over deliver. It's the easiest premise in life but the White Sox fail to do so miserably every year with it. I'm frustrated because I think 95% of the blame in FA lies at the feet of ownership. As you see with all these big contracts, these are ownership deals. The owners are always in the room and etc. My beef with Hahn is he keeps thinking he's going to talk his boss into this, and he leads fans on. My problem is: 1. The Sox saved a shit ton of money. They haven't run a payroll over 100 million since 2015. This team ran a 121 million dollar payroll in 2007! It's 2019 and they are going to go into a season in which they claimed "was time to start trying" with a payroll under what they ran at 13 years ago. That's embarrassing. 2. Sox fans were told repeatedly they'd be rewarded for their patience. When? As I said, if they wanted to use a stop gap in RF and trust that Gio/Kopech/Cease would be TOR guys and invest their big lump into Mookie or Springer? Fine, but who can possibly believe that will happen? I don't think next year has to be the year - as I pointed out, the Astros missed the playoffs the year after they were wild card - but I just want to see something. I feel like the carrot has been dangled in front of my face so long that it's brown and moldy. 3. Why can't the Sox compete for top of the market guys? That narrative is tired. They have a rich owner - even worse an owner who has gotten rich off the back of the fans he doesn't support - and they have a great TV deal. Also what does that even mean the Sox don't owe me shit? What kind of miserable person goes through life with no expectation for things they invest their time and money into? The Sox don't owe me anything, but I certainly have the right to voice my displeasure with their constant BS. Lastly, these last few years have been miserable man. I know I sound like a spoiled Sox fan because for most of my life I didn't have to watch miserable baseball... but this last decade and specifically these last 4 years have been really hard. I love to go to games and record/watch them all on TV when I get time. This team has been flat out tough to watch. I really don't like the modern rebuild in sports; teams don't even attempt to put MLB talent on the field but they still charge MLB prices and etc. I want to watch teams try to win; I don't like watching teams run out non-MLB talent in hopes of competing one day and I think it's nonsense a lot of the time. These organizations have made hundreds and hundreds of millions with these investments; some even billions. There's no reason a team needs to strip it all the way down and put complete garbage on the field as entertainment for four years. I understand why the Sox did it, and I hope it works, but it's been a really hard and painful 4 years for someone like me who just loves the game. I got a lot of enjoyment out of watching the team compete for 20 years, even if they came up short most of the time. At least there was excitement and hope. Sorry for the long post, this is all just frustrating sometimes.

Here's a hypothetical for you to point out the absurdity of everyone citing this MLB pipeline number. Do you think the Sox would rather have given up Steele Walker or Micker Adolfo?

Um, nothing? Sox like Mazara. Some people really like Mazara some don't. And I love everyone constantly citing mlb pipelines prospect ranking lol.

Well maybe they should shut the fuck up then because they have implied two off seasons in a row that they were going to spend big. Sox just saves hundreds of millions by spending and investing nothing into the mlb team for years. Would be nice for this organization to pay back the fans loyalty and patience for once.

I'm so tired of the Machado money narrative from this front office. They act as if Manny Machado was the only player they were going to sign for 5 years. The way they speak about the machado money cracks me up... Apparently abreu got some of the machado money.. so, they were going to let abreu leave if they signed machado? Doubtful. If the Sox were willing to spend 250 million on one player then their multi year budget had to be like 500 million unless they were committed to investing every dollar they could spend for 5 years on one player. Fact is this team is heading for another sub 120 payroll when 15 years ago they were running payrolls around 130.

what Balta fails to mention in his comment is the Astros missed the playoffs the year after they were the wild card.

I dont think hes a bad GM, I just am pointing out that teams miss on their targets a lot... even teams that feel certain they're going to get a guy.