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QUOTE (TheTruth05 @ Sep 30, 2014 -> 06:41 PM) no playoffs in 6 years for either side does that Amen. Let's face it there are very few diehard fans outside of this message board. Can Abreu become the guy to save the day with Sale? Guys people have to come see like those of the past like Paulie, Buehrle, Baines, Frank, Ventura? Will fans tune in in the future?

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Sep 30, 2014 -> 05:42 AM) I don't see the Twins as an organization that wants OG representing it to the world. Thing is, he's hungry and he's a great baseball mind. Like you suggest, It's just that mouth that couldn't stop roaring in Chicago and Miami.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Sep 30, 2014 -> 04:51 AM) Rome wasn't built in a day. The Sox team Hahn inherited was awful. Outside of the Cubs and 'Stros, and argument could be made coming into this season the Sox had the worst MLB talent in all of MLB in '13. Furthermore, unlike those teams, the Sox also were in the unevniable position as having a bottom 5 farm. In fact, when he took over, there were really only 3-5 players on the entire 40 man roster you'd consider possible starters on the next Sox playoff team: Alexei, Quintana, and Sale ok for sure, then name 2 more from the opening day roster in '13. It's slim pickings. Hahn has accomplished in a very short time a) getting the team's MLB talent back to mediocre and b) getting the MilB talent back to mediocre (or possibly even good depending on how highly you view Rodon/Adama/Danish/Montas/Bassitt. He's done this without bumping payroll, in fact he's done this while CUTTING payroll. The team is younger, has 3 foundational players (and contracts) and has enough prospects and payroll flexibility to make a run starting possibly as soon as next year. You don't go from 68 wins or whatever to 90 overnight. That they were 10 better this season while still playing a bunch of dead wood (to see if it wasn't quite rotted to the core in the case of most of it) is a very impressive GM job. Look at how other team's flounder in their tear downs. Hahn did in 1 offseason what it took the 'Stros and Cubs to do in 3-4 and he's done it with hardly any bad mistakes. You can preach on about how awful Paulino was but come on man, he was basically a spring invite that cost the amount of revenue from 1/162 of their MLBAM share. It was a nothing cost move that cost them nothing, and might have even (ya!) gotten them a protected 8th pick rather than a non protected later pick. Anyways, my grades, don't care about the pen won't list them other than as a group: position players nieto: D: --upside is there but needs more seasoning in AAA. Framing awful, hitting has potential, good tools. turned in a OK year for a backup catcher but I'm not gonna curve grade flowers: C- --late season surge and steady defense earn him a passing grade but hardly a standout year Kong: D- -- bumped revenue, was like -2 WAR on field. Abreu: A -- turned from incomplete slugger to triple threat down the stretch, one of the top 5 hitters in MLB, stud. played in 145 games, proved fairly durable if fatigued at end Beckham: D- --defense was usual solid, but with such an awful bat he'd need to be the wiz at SS to carry a 260 OBP. Semian: C- -- showed flashes but also major holes in his game. was hurt by the move to 3B IMO but his bat was MIA except for a few late game heroics Sanchez: C- -- really could be a D but at times an elite glove at 2B. Hitting obviously needs to improve but with that glove he could carry a 260/300/340 type line. Him and Semian will be key next year to any thoughts of contention imo Alexei: B+ -- another year of staying healthy and putting up around 4 WAR. Very much enjoy watching Alexei and his bat was pretty good for a SS in 2014. they don't hit like they did in the sillyball era Conor: B- -- again, no curves, ended up 1.2 fWAR and 1.6 bWAR, which eh, is probably what he is. Needs a platoon partner badly. Could be why Semian is playing so much 3B -- he's the platoon in '15. Keppinger: F -- if he had played, he would have sucked. Garcia: C+ -- Bat was even slower than usual after the injury but ran into enough and took enough walks to where you can squint and see a pretty damn good hitter. Middle case seems he'll be an OK starter. Hard worker to come back. Moises: C+ -- toolsy. May never be more than a 4th OF, but worth taking a flyer on in '15 spring Taylor: INC -- nothing there Tank: D -- brutal defense, no average, decent power, adds up to a below replacement level player that will probably be traded for scraps Eaton: B+ -- easy A if he had played 150 games instead of 123. Gets on base at a good clip (361), plays great defense, and can run the bases a bit. Not much of a base stealer but his reads and 1st to 3rd are top notch. Danks: D- -- one day he'll have a lifetime job in the sox marketing dpt if he wants. Leury: F -- sucks, should have been in AAA but Sox were incredibly thin at SS depth Willkins: F -- see, Danks. future FO mid level executive if he wants starters: Sale: A- -- some injury time missed, otherwise can't ask for more, top 3 starter in MLB. Q: A- -- workhorse, went over 200 ip, tough luck loser often, but top 15 mlb starter Johnson: F -- has to be injured, lost his razor thin margin when he went from 90-92 to 88-90. Not optimistic he'll ever bounce back, seems to have a shoulder problem Paulino: F -- easy come easy go Carroll : D+ -- actually was a decent facsmille of a MLB quality 4thish, 5th starter at times. Othertimes proved he's a long man at best, absolute best. Noesi: C -- did a solid job, passable 4th starter in a mediocre rotation, solid 5th in a good one though. cheap for the next couple years good pickup bassit: C+ -- if he can keep that control up he'll be a solid MLB starter. Not sure he really can though. Pen, grade as whole: F -- Only guys with decent FIPS are I believe Putnam and Petricka. Eveyrone else pretty much sucked. FO: Hahn: A -- see above Robin: D -- players like him. awful tactician, has no concept of platoons and lineup construction. loves to make a move only to be easily countered by the opposing team Cooper: B -- didn't have much to work with, made some improvements with Noesi. The cream rose with Q and Sale. Will have his most important project since Sale next year with Rodon. Stevenson: B -- In general, I think he was a positive influence but maybe only because the talent was better. Team grade: B-: An exciting year that had many great walk off wins and some elite indidivudal performances. The Sox haven't had a hitter this good since Frank. They haven't had a pitcher this good since...? The bullpen was awful,a function of throwing a bunch of s*** at the wall and hoping it turned into gold plated s***. Didn't happen and the team also gave up a ton of runs at the margins with awful defense in the corners (for the most part) and below replacement batting lines spread throughout the lineup. THe future however should see those holes filled, either through acquiring some salary and/or trades, or in house prospects. Awesome post. Good reading. Some astute points and well written. Glad to see somebody else isn't proclaming Noesi the next Tom Seaver.

I have no beefs with Robin the man. I'm convinced Sale is in the wrong here.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Sep 30, 2014 -> 05:29 AM) Abreu is sooo good that he personally lifted our offense out of the toilet and is the single reason we are talking about contention in 2015 and can use words like retooling instead of rebuilding. Greg do you feel like Hahn has accelerated the rebuild or not, just in general. Like do you weigh the Davidson blunder equally with the Abreu success? Well, my opinion is the Reed trade really hurt the bullpen and knocked everything out of kilter. It would have been nice to have a proven closer, a guy capable of getting 31 saves like Reed. As bad as some say he is, I think staying in Chicago as the established closer would have helped him even more and he'd have had minimum of 31 saves for the Sox. So I do feel the Davidson blunder was very costly and big in my giving him a C. Jerk, I am not sure we are in a position to contend in 2015. I'm not in that camp. Not right now. Nobody has given me a GREAT reason to up my grade of C to B. Now ... if two moves, Abreu and Eaton were so good and I'm mistaken, then yes, I'll give him the B. I thought the bullpen and the 89 losses and horrid defense added up to a C. In answer to your question, I think he has accelerated the rebuild because of Abreu/Eaton but at this point in time the team remains an 89-loss team next season. Hopefully he has a plan, which he probably does, and we'll get to .500.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 30, 2014 -> 04:25 AM) Um, how do you grade anyone, except against his peers? I wish more people would post their grades, then mine wouldn't be so scrutinized. I never thought this thread would turn into this. You make a compelling statement/sentence, but I grade them based on the factors I've listed in my many posts: acquisitions, record of the team. I just am stupified that people think he's way better than a C, which is an average grade. Believe me, if the Sox ever contend again til the final week of the season I WILL give Mr. Hahn credit.

This is awful news about Guillen. Geezus baseball is testing my patience. I could never hate a team in which Guillen is the manager. As Twins' manager he'll be doing things like throwing at Sox hitters, going after our players, etc. Playing Ozzie 20 times as a "rival?" Sickening and sad. It's hard to imagine Ozzie wanting and needing to beat the Sox to go to the postseason. He'll be hated so badly on the Southside. He'll go from pretty popular to the devil with our fans. I wish Robin would agree to be hitting coach and let Ozzie return. Sign them both to 10 year deals with lots of clauses involving Ozzie's behavior. No offense to Robin, but I would think even the most ardent Ozzie hater on this board would agree he's a MUCH better skipper than Robin Ventura. DONT LET OZ GO TO MINNESOTA. Horrible thought.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 29, 2014 -> 11:29 PM) If the Paulino deal is a big deal, then the Noesi waiver deal cancels that out, because that is who replaced him, FOR FREE, in the rotation. You also have to give credit for the waiver deals to bring Guerra and Sierra in. That is three people on the 25 man roster brought in for nothing, on top of two of the best contracts in baseball. Again, who else did better? Instead of talking, I want you to actually show me a GM who had a better year. Prove it. With all due respect, these are White Sox grades. I'm not being a smart aleck but what does other GMs have to do with my grade for Hahn? Plus, Sierra is just another guy and I know some people on this board this Guerra is great, but again, I am not one of them. I 'm not trying to be difficult. I am giving Hahn great credit for Abreu and Eaton and I guess, Noesi, but I don't see any reason to give him better than a C (or in that range) considering his team lost 89 games and blew chunks again. Yes there were way more exciting moments than 2013, but 89 losses and no real reason to think the team can do any better than that. I have no idea what GM had a better year, if any. I may be a pessimistic fan, but I happen to think 89 losses blows. I'm hoping this is part of the process and he adds great pieces to get us to be able to go .500 next year. QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Sep 30, 2014 -> 01:02 AM) Hahn gets an A, no doubt. He spent very little money and essentially brought in two, possibly three cornerstone players in Eaton, Jose and Garcia. I don't mean to be difficult. I just don't necessarily think the Sox are ready to contend. Yea you can say he could have gotten more for Rios or quibble with the Paulino money but in the grand scheme of things he took one of the worst, most unwatchable, talent less clubs in '13 and turned them into a highly watchable, talented but flawed, '14 club. The pieces are now in place for the next run of contention. There is a lot more work to be done, but from the POV of where the Sox were at entering last offseason, he did a helluva job filling holes. How is an 89 loss team worthy of an A? Are we giving participation trophy grades? MLB is a man's game. An A is pretty generous.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 29, 2014 -> 09:49 PM) Greg, in your opinion, what could he have done differently to improve this team beyond that 72-75 win threshold? Again, you are talking about a guy who improved this team by 10 wins when the cupboard was essentially bare and now, rather than bare and ugly, they have quite a few guys who look like they could be solid contributors at the MLB level and it's not beyond reasonable expectations to assume they can improve another 10 games next year, if not more. I have no problem with a B, but a C assumes that he did an average job, and I think he went well beyond what would be assumed of an average GM in that situation. First of all I hope what you said about the defense and bullpen is correct. I was thinking 3B would remain a black hole and LF with Dayan and even RF with Avi and 1B with Abreu. I sensed some lingering problems there that can't be fixed. And if Lexi is traded depending on the replacement, wow, the defense I thought could be so bad it'll make our heads spin. I also hope you are right that the bullpen can be fixed with minimal problems. I obviously disagree. Hope you are right. Well, in answer to your question, the team did improve by 10, but 99 to 89 does not thrill me. It is progress, though. I think my angry bullpen posts show that indeed I blamed Hahn heavily for that disaster. The Reed trade ... Now the problem here is everybody is on me for the grade of C which is not like I gave him a D. I just find it hard to give a guy a B who made the Davidson deal (no matter how it looked at the time) and the Paulino deal and concocted a team with this bad of a defense. I truly feel my last two sentences make a grade of C a legitimate one (to go with ALL Hahn's great successes). I guess I am not completely against improving it to a B (as I am willing to compromise unlike Congress) but it sort of pains me to do so.

In regards to the Leyland comment, if he's given up smoking he's probably still young enough to manage the Sox five years or so, right? He'd be perfect for the South Side if Robin decides he's had enough. Q: If Ozzie signed a document saying he would pay a $1 million fine if he opens his mouth about any issue besides baseball would you accept him back on a one-year deal, to be renegotiated after each season he's with the Sox?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 29, 2014 -> 09:32 PM) Again, I want you to find me better contracts in MLB than what Abreu and Q have. If you can do that, then you have earned the right to give a lower grade. They are awesome. Let me ask you about his failures and the fact the team sucks and figures to blow again next year w/out major upgrades? Why is C a bad grade and an inaccurate grade.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 29, 2014 -> 09:26 PM) Big picture, Rick Hahn got a franchise player for the next six years, without giving up any other player or draft pick, and only $68 million. That alone, is worth the A. For perspectives sake, a MUCH older and beat up Miguel Cabrera just signed an extension for over 4 times the amount of promised money ($292 million). Add to that Jose Quintana's contract, which on the open market we are talking about somewhere around a $150 to $200 million pitcher, to a deal that is guaranteed for only $26.5 million for the next five years. Quintana could get more than that PER YEAR on the open market, potentially. His two option years are worth $22 million, total. Those two deals are like getting the 2 for $20 at Applebee's in Lawrence Kansas for $3. If you think those two deals alone don't make an A, I want you find me another player who signed a contract like the two we are looking at from Abreu and Quintana, and tell me how that GM did better. I see what you are saying and I said I might have moved him up to a B by just those two amazing moves, but I stand by my C right now. I won't downplay the greatness of Q and Abreu and Eaton. I don't want to say it's Hahn's fault but the Sox are a rotten 89 loss team with no real improvement on the horizon (barring a fantastic Hahn-led offseason). What's wrong with the grade of C? You keep your job with a C.

QUOTE (knightni @ Sep 29, 2014 -> 02:15 PM) The problems in general are, that RBI and pitching wins are not accurate assessments for players anymore. They have no control of either of those stats. I'm sorry but I think almost everybody in baseball would tell you RBIs mean something. I mean, my gosh, RBI is a worthless stat now? I firmly disagree on that. Do me a favor and go to Soxfest this year and bring a tape recorder and ask 10 or so Sox there about RBIs and post the audio. Please. QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 29, 2014 -> 05:59 PM) You can't look merely at the surface and say "the team was bad so Hahn was bad." That's shallow, naive, and wrong. He didn't bring in any bad long-term contracts. He got a guy who has a bit of talent in Nieto. He brought in enough minor league free agents and other young relievers that we can say "hey, maybe they have the makings of an OK bullpen heading into next year." He brought in a #4/5 starter for the cost of a waiver claim. He got something for Beckham, De Aza, and Dunn. He signed Jose Quintana to one of the best contracts I've ever seen in my life. He drafted a guy represented by Scott Boras and then actually got him signed, and said player is already one of the best prospects in all of minor league baseball. He continued expanding the Sox horizons in Latin America. He didn't trade away any valuable, long-term pieces from the minor league teams. Oh, and he also signed some Jose Abreu guy. Frankly, I'd like to hear your reasoning for why he deserves anything other than an A. First of all, C isn't that bad a grade. I truly think he deserves a C. I don't frankly think the things you listed are THAT impressive. We agree on Q's contract. Nice that he got Rodon signed, but cmon. The draft is the draft. I do agree it's the GM's hyde so I agree he probably made a nice pick on Rodon. Again, most people on this board would have drafted the same guy. I can't say I would cause I could give a bleep about the draft and don't follow it. Nieto? OK. Paulino is the negative. What a stiff. And Keppinger. My gosh. He got something for Beckham, DeAza and Dunn? Big deal. Cmon that's in my C grade line of thinking. Anybody could have 'finally' moved those guys for something. At least I think so. TheLatin America scouting? Agreed. Nice job. Abreu? Fantastic. Eaton too. I disagree with some of you on the young bullpen guys. I think they are pretty expendable, all of em except 'maybe' Petricka and maybe Putnam. I'm obviously not a huge Putnam guy. Petricka looks OK. Hopefully he'll develop. All in all, I truly believe my Hahn grade of C is good. I do not think the team will be any better next year, barring some great moves by Hahn. The bullpen? Ugh. The defense?? Very very very bad. I wish him the best. For this year? A nice grade of C I think is applicable. --Only way I feel I could up it to a B is because of how good Abreu and Eaton are. I think those two magical moves don't deserve a full grade improvement, though, because of the 89 losses and spectre of the same amount of losses 'possibly' next season.

QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Sep 29, 2014 -> 08:47 PM) I was there yesterday, with my two kids. It was my 4 year old's first game. I thought he needed to see Paulie play once. Even though he wasn't all that interested in the game, he kept asking, "Where is that guy who isn't playing anymore?" I hope PK continues on in some capacity with this team. They need someone like him as a coach or in the FO. I'm glad I got to say farewell. Thanks PK. Good for you. That's a great first game for your 4 year old. I agree it would be great he stay in the organization. But his kids are very young and maybe he'll simply want to coach them the next 15 years or something. That'd be a good life as well. I see him as one of those guys who will just retire and raise his kids with all that money he has. He doesn't like the Midwest weather and probably wants to enjoy life and like I said, raise those kids. There's really no reason to work anymore when you've made that much money. He always could do some broadcasting on the side.

Should we have a postseason thread on the White Sox? De Aza of the Orioles Dunn of the A's Beckham of the Angels. WOW. They all get a shot to be heroes after their respective flops in Chicago. Think about it. Adam Dunn can become immortal in Oakland with a monster postseason. It starts in KC tomorrow where he could connect a few times off Shields.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Sep 29, 2014 -> 01:29 PM) Hahn a C? No, I'd give him a B/B+. In one offseason, he brought in the teams 2 best pitchers and had another excellent draft class. If anything, Hahn has really turned this franchise around on a dime. I thought this teams outlook was going to be abysmal for awhile when he took over....today, I can confidently say I believe they are a playoff contender next season. 2 or 3 smart offseason moves and they are right in it. We lost 89 games. Team has pathetic bullpen and defense. It's going to be very hard to fix the defense. It really is. You guys are kind graders IMO. Yes he deserves eternal praise for Abreu and Eaton. QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 29, 2014 -> 03:13 PM) Off of the field: Rick Hahn A Robin Ventura B Don Cooper B Todd Steverson B How could Hahn get an A?

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 29, 2014 -> 05:17 AM) Alexei gets an "A" for .273 with a .713 OPS? Yes, he knocked in 73 runs and played good defense.

Here are my grades for this season. I'll give the team a C-minus though I wouldn't argue with D. Abreu: A-plus. He had 36 HRS, 107 RBI. Everybody likey. Beckham: D. He stunk and his tenure was blah. (Sanchez in 27 games hit .247; Semien hit .233 in 63 games; both get Incompletes). The eye test tells me Semien will be a good player. Alexei: A. He hit .273 with 74 RBI. Gillaspie: B. I wouldn't argue B-plus. He hit .282 with 57 RBI in 130 games. Viciedo: D. He hit 21 homers and only drove in 58, barely hitting .230. He's an underachiever to date. Eaton: A. We all know he was great. A. Garcia: B to B-minus. Hit .250 in 45 games. Showed a lot of guts to come back so quickly. Flowers: C. Hit .240 with 15 homers. 50 RBIs. Paulie: I'd like to give him an incomplete as a favor to my idol. If I have to give a grade I'd give him a D. Dunn: 20 home runs in 360 at bats. That's not so horrendous. I'll give him a C this year. For his Sox career a big fat D. Moises Sierra, Danks and guys like that didn't play a lot. Not a big fan of that duo. Quintana: B. 3.32 ERA is fine. Sale: A-plus. He's good. Danks: C. He was 11-11? Not bad for an 89-loss team. I realize we don't care about wins and losses of pitchers anymore. Noesi: C. 8-11 record. Carroll: C-. Was 5-10 I love everything about him except his stuff. I'll give all the relievers a D except Petricka and Putnam who get Cs. And Bella of course gets an F. I can't bring myself to mention each guy. Robin: He gets a C. The team was a couple games over .500 at a fairly late date then sucked. I wouldn't argue C-. Hahn: C. He improved the team some but the team is still lousy and not a contender. Jerry Reinsdorf: D. No sense of urgency from the big guy. That's it for now. I think we have some good players. At this time, I'm really down on our bullpen and down on Viciedo. Soxtalk posters: C. I wouldn't argue B-. Still a reluctance to start new threads with people thinking a new thread is evil for some reason. People love the catchall threads more than new threads. Not a lot of activity on the baseball board. Lot of lurkers need to start posting more. The new posters were awesome this season. Of my own posting I'd give myself a B-. I put passion into my posts even if many of you despise me. Cheers to the White Sox.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 28, 2014 -> 08:34 PM) Webb's definitely disappointed this season. Not one prospect in the entire bullpen except possibly and I say possibly Petricka.

End of an era. Pure utter class. Denny Matthews of the Royals crew praising Paulie for making a helluva career for himself when the Dodgers and Reds didn't want him and thought he was a stiff. Paul Konerko is f***ing amazing.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Sep 28, 2014 -> 08:08 PM) That's a little much... he shouldn't be given a free hit no matter how meaningless the game is Montgomery said it was another unwritten rule. If the game doesn't matter and a legend is in his final at bats, throw him a cookie.

Royals announcers critiquing KC Coleman throwing sliders to Paulie instead of cookies. Jeff Montgomery said George Brett was fed cookies in his final at bat. Royals should be ashamed of themselves.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Sep 28, 2014 -> 08:54 PM) Just an incredible year for him. Abreu got most of the headlines, but Eaton was the catalyst at the top when he was healthy As much as I despise Hahn for the Davidson trade, I commend him for finding Eaton. Nice.

OK, the Royals get the wildcard, can't win division. It's time to serve one up on a platter for Paulie. Put it up on a tee for him, Ventura. If that punk kid sets him up for the easy strikeout, that's a bushleague move. They let Jeter have it on a platter.

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 28, 2014 -> 07:31 PM) A win here could cost the Sox to fall two spots in the draft Good. I'd rather see Phegs and Semien have success and win than root for a phantom draft pick. Not judging you, you didn't express your position on the matter. GO SOX! p.s. Got a feeling KC will lose the wildcard game. They are going to be so happy 'just to be there' they are gonna get smoked at home by Oakland. At least the Sox took full advantage in 05, winning it all instead of just being happy to be there. That was fortunate considering we never got back.