Sports Guy

Ok I’m glad too. Your satisfaction is my top priority.

Well I’m sure those 2 vets will get their time here and there but Mateo can’t hit and his glove isn’t better than Ortiz. Urias sees time everywhere and will spell guys but he’s not an everyday player. Elias has said that Ortiz will be an everyday SS. I don’t buy that he will be long term for the Os because of Holliday but he can certainly handle second as well. Now, he has to hit. If he comes up and struggles with the bat, he will be nothing more than a UTI player at best. But with his glove, he doesn’t have to hit much to be worth a lot to a team. I mean, Mateo was a 3+ WAR player a few years ago and his bat is awful.

Do you work for CNN because you are “reporting” a lot of bs. In not being condescending at all. I’m just address a post and talking about the merits of proven, older prospects vs younger, less proven guys. The idea that you are making a big deal about that is your own problem.

Plenty of Os fans feel this way about Ortiz but as with any fan base, you have the over the top, everything is going to be great fans. You have those fans too. Every team does. The semantics of what number piece he is gets a little over the top. Let’s just say, for example, the deal on the table is Westburg, Ortiz and Beavers. (os aren’t trading Westburg and Ortiz in the same deal but just for discussion purposes) Is Ortiz the second piece or the third piece? That’s in the eye of the beholder. Some may have him 2 and some may have him 3. You aren’t getting a second piece that is definitively better than him because that would mean the first piece is far better than the second piece and that’s not a level of value you are getting for Cease.

Well said..I agree with everything you wrote.

There are 2 ways: 1) Westburg is traded. If that happens, he’s starting on the IF somewhere most games. 2) As of right now, the Os could start him everyday. They have vets like Mateo and Urias who could see time themselves but as of today, they have an open IF spot. They have 2 current everyday infielders who can play multiple IF positions in Westburg and Henderson. The obvious issue with #2 is when does the team bring up Holliday. Personally, I don’t think he’s brought up until they have cleared the likely super 2 threshold and, more importantly, lessened his at bats to the point where placing in the top 2 in ROy voting becomes tough to do and thus they get the extra year. This didn’t work out with Rutschman, so I suspect they show more caution with Holliday. However, there’s a chance they don’t and he is brought up sooner. If that’s the case, then playing time for Ortiz will be harder to come by. Westburg or Ortiz really need to be dealt imo..Westburg has more value, so he is the guy who should go. I like him but not really anymore than Ortiz.

Then he shouldn’t have said worthless. It wasn’t two words. It was one. Those are 2 different things. If he means what you are saying, I agree with that although again, that doesn’t apply to any one individual player because any one individual player can get better and see value improve but I do agree with it as an overall group and general rule of thumb.

His value doesn’t plummet if he is starting for the Os though. That’s what I’m saying. A players worth isn’t just tied to a trade. Where I do agree is that holding him to be a UTi player/insurance policy is dumb. My concern for some of these guys is that they get hurt or exposed or whatever and then they lose value. However, for any individual player that’s not true..it’s more of a general thought process for any team or any group of players.

What is opposite that I’m saying? Show me

Show me how. And show me the actual words. Not how your brain tries to interpret something…because you are awful at that. I have never once said you guys shouldn’t be looking to gain upside guys. I have said that I don’t think the Os are the best match for you because of that. I have said the Os should trade one of the OFers most of you want. I have said that Ortiz shouldn’t be someone you target and he is someone that some Os fans are overrating in terms of his value in this package. I actually agree with most of the points on here by those of you who actually have good points. So, show me. Prove your point with actual proof.

Yes but again, read the actual post I was addressing. Not the one that your second personality has drummed up in your head. Im speaking specifically about his assertion that it could be positive to hold onto Cease but holding onto the Os players is only a negative for the Os. Thats not accurate. There are plenty of positive things that could occur for the Os as a result of keeping those guys.

I never said it was a problem for you guys to want high upside guys. I said that weeks ago. I said I didn’t feel you guys will contend for a while and that you should want high upside, further away guys. Im not blaming you for that and I never have. But the flip side to that is that if those guys fail, you end up with nothing. You guys have said time and time again how you need this trade to work out for you. Taking a bunch of high ceiling 20 year olds is great but your bust potential is high.

Do you whine this much in real life?

That’s fine…but it doesn’t mean the player is worthless. That’s what I’m saying. And the context was that keeping cease is all but positivity and the Os keeping their guys is negativity. That’s not accurate at all.

Huh? This doesn’t make sense. Cease is much older than them and showing some signs of decline. To say age isn’t working against him but it’s working against guys 3-5 years younger doesn’t make sense. They may be old for a prospect but that doesn’t mean they are going to be worthless. They are going to help the actual ML team.

The other issue with WS fans wanting nothing but a bunch of high upside guys is that you are setting yourself up for complete failure. That may be ok with you but at the end of the day, if this is a team that is struggling to develop players, getting guys further away with low floors may not be the best way to go. Getting older and more developed prospects that are harder to screw up seems to be the best road to getting definite value for your second best trade chip. It’s kind of like drafting high in the draft and you are down to a HS kid vs a college kid. The HS kid undoubtedly has a higher ceiling but they are also harder project and you hate to have that really high pick and completely miss on it, especially when you are in the early stages of your rebuild.

I don’t understand your first 2 points. You said Os fans want to hold them until they are worthless but if you hold Cease, there’s potential for more. Why is that holding onto the Os players doesn’t mean they become more?

I have seen multiple people on here and social media in general referring to things like “a garbage package” like the one James said.

The old prospect stuff is a little overplayed on here but it is a factor. The question is when do you want to truly contend. If you want to contend in 2 years, getting “older prospects” is a good thing because they can come up now and you can start the road back to respectability. The COVID year screwed a lot of these kids and you are going to see more older prospects because of it.

I think Jones is overrated personally but maybe the Yankees see him as their CFer of the future. Kind of like Bradfield for the Os. They don’t have anyone else for that important position and the upside is very good, so we aren’t moving him. I always get surprised that the Yankees don’t do something stupid.

How are you defining many? Most are fine with Cowser, Westburg or Kjerstad as a headliner. What you are leaving out is the idea that a lot of fans are against trading a lot for Cease. So many of you keep treating these words that it means Os fans are saying these guys are untouchable. There are only 3 players that even remotely have that untouchable tag and even that’s not really true..it’s just that the players you would trade them for aren’t available, so they might as well be untouchable. Its just that a lot of fans see the command and control issues, the decrease in stuff, the 97 ERA+ last year and the general good but not great career surround one great season and say, it’s not worth trading for. It’s not an unfair thing to say, just as it’s not unfair for you guys to say, we want a lot for him because of the cost of pitching. Neither side is wrong. Personally, I think the Os fans who don’t want him are crazy but I still get their POV on it.

Yea I would agree with that. I find it hard to believe the Yankees would say no to that but who knows. I don’t know what the impact of trading a bunch of guys in the Soto deal has to them. Can’t be that much or else you would figure they wouldn’t have engaged with them to begin with. I think younger, higher ceiling guys is the best way for your team to go.

It’s not hard..I have said it. I don’t know why it’s so hard for you to comprehend that. But that doesn’t make him a bad player and in fact, I would bet money that he ends up with a higher career WAR than at least half of the current top 100 list. You can keep ignoring the batted ball data from him but it’s very good. https://x.com/jopo12191/status/1747432086917587010?s=46&t=G3On-_LleGmZce-r3ClVZA But I’m good. I think we can take Ortiz off the table in terms of discussing him as part of this deal. I don’t disagree that he makes less sense for you guys because of his age. If any of these reports are true and Westburg is a target, he should be in the deal and the Os should keep Ortiz.

If the Os wanted to put their best on the table, no chance the Yankees can hang. But, since they aren’t, it becomes either a quantity deal (which they can hang with) or it becomes a Cowser/Kjerstad/Westburg vs Jones type thing(as a headliner)..who do you (and by you, I mean Getz) prefer. That’s tough. Obviously no one knows that. Of course, none of those guys may be on the table either..who knows. But sure the Yankees can hang although the Yankees guys have a history of being overhyped. (Again, talking specifically about these lists vs performance). It just depends on who is made available in the trade.

Some FYI: https://x.com/firesideyankees/status/1747625142992224593?s=46&t=G3On-_LleGmZce-r3ClVZA