LDF

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 19, 2015 -> 12:42 AM) The problem continues to be that they "SHOULD" have understood it was far fetched to make the playoffs. For that team to make the playoffs they needed an enormous number of things to go right - including things that don't happen. When you buy multiple veterans on the FA market, some of them fail. We needed all of them to succeed to even have a shot, and even then we could have been outgunned easily by the Royals. We needed everyone to stay healthy - which by some miracle actually did happen. We needed our own guys to develop rapidly, which didn't happen, but which is another failure that comes back to them - either failure to find them coaches that could help them succeed or a failure to understand how likely our own guys were to fall flat on their faces. I keep using the putting your mortgage up as collateral in Vegas metaphor. You're not dead if you lose your house, you still have your health, and there is a finite chance you could win. But if your bet goes wrong...you better know exactly what you're going to do if you lose your house. good point and a nice slant on this discussion of where the sox went wrong..... since the season was thought to have been lost. so which answer will be right or wrong??? me, i go back to preseason of last yr when the sox lost to the sCrubs badly when the the sCrubs were only playing their backups. but it was all verify when the sox had a lousy start and a play called wrong which was shown on the replay and RV did not do anything ...... in other words, bad luck.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Nov 19, 2015 -> 12:24 AM) we can win it all in 2016 with the team we have i see you still may be hitting that bottle pretty hard.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Nov 19, 2015 -> 12:11 AM) That's twice I've seen him packaged with Sale and Eaton. Lol Even if we were to move them it'd be in seperate deals to maximize value. i still have my crazy ideas of a trade that still hasn't change. i even remember soxpride calling it crazy or something.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 19, 2015 -> 12:38 AM) fathom would probably tell you that I spent like my first 5-6 years here being the optimist to his pessimist. and i spent my time here in the beginning defending the owners against the mass. now with the WS win, it appears as the mass has become the owners defenders.

i really have this question to ask and i am not directing it against anyone, but i am curious and lost. rebuild vs retool. when does one become the other???

QUOTE (Baron @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 11:49 PM) Well if they thought it was far fetched they sure did waist alot of money for this mirage. and with anything dealing with professional org, we the fans will not know what the bottom line is in income or to be precise what was the total profit was from the investment part. so all that is an assumption.

QUOTE (Baron @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 11:06 PM) The thing is Chisoxfn I would be more comfortable with a total rebuild if it wasnt the same people organizing it that were just screaming playoffs last year. So you guys failed. Now we have to wallow in misery for a few years because your moves put us in this position? That shouldnt make anyone feel confident that they'll get this right. I have almost zero faith that even if they get the right prospects that they have the right coaching staff in place to help them develop. Any Front Office who seemingly puts a team in position for playoffs and fails shouldnt have a shot at a rebuild. You've already demonstrated that there's huge flaws in the way you scout/sign players and develop them. i am going to play devil's advocate and ask these question. 1. could the sox know that it was far fetched to make the playoff and was hoping to sell tickets?? 2. did they really think the team had a chance but was snake-bit by a lousy start?? obviously they didn't think it was RV failure b/c they gave him another chance to manage,

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 09:07 PM) I don't because those teams are easily able to keep their prospects and spend $$ on a starter. I think a team like the Pirates would be much more likely to trade for Q or Sale because they could never get a player like that otherwise. also players that are really cost control....

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 09:51 PM) I agree...that is why the only reason it would work is if you traded for a plethora of young talent to where you could afford misses (cause they will happen). To me this is more about ensuring you have quality position talent then anything else and I think you don't have to necessarily trade everyone. If you traded Sale and got 4-5 guys that you thought were potential major leaguers and 1-2 with relatively elite prospects (and maybe already proven to an extent to be solid), then you could fill multiple holes while only opening up 1 hole (and at an area that is relatively strong anyway and where we have a track record of internal success developing pitching). this idea of this kind of trade is to get players who can, as you said fill in holes and let the rest of the minor league develop its players without rushing.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 09:07 PM) And young "talent" has a way of disappointing. It wasn't long ago many were concerned about the date Matt Davidson had to wait so he wouldn't be a super 2. If they traded Q, Sale, Abreu, and Robertson for prospects, they would IMO no doubt be considered a top 5 farm system in baseball. If you look at the supposed top farm systems in baseball 4 or 5 years ago, and look at their top 10 prospects, there aren't very many of them making much of a contribution these days. in my opinion there is one major thing wrong in this post. but don't get me wrong, you stated the obvious, the players rtn many yr later. the main point is, it would be wishful hoping that all prospects / players that came from a big trade will amount to become susperstars or above avg players. i am and i think that most are hoping that they all become useful, quality players.... maybe one becomes a better that quality player. the results i am looking at is did they fill in a gap that was needed and did they contribute to the team in a useful way, and yes i am also including a useful hitting stat.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 07:22 PM) Not sure if this is the right spot for my rant, but I think we are in this bind because you have a power struggle within that is pushing us to have such an incoherent strategy. I think Jerry is old and wants to win and Kenny is aggressive but Rick is pushing his agenda as well so you end up with a relatively dysfunctional process. To be honest, I just want to see progress being made. I'm tired of watching a paper champ or paper solid team with vets suck. A few stars and a bunch of s*** doesn't excite me either (which is our current roster). Lets turn the stars and load up on quality players and hopefully find a few new stars in the process. Do something to make baseball enjoyable again for me. I can't even stand watching most of the Sox games because they are such a stupid, awful fundamental baseball team that has a lot of players who are amongst the worst at their respective positions (but those players have very little upside and we have very little positional talent coming up in our system...cause we either can't draft it or can't develop it or a combo of both). f***...I'm turning into Balta (and I like being a super optimist). By the way, I still think we can retool pretty quick cause our stars should command a kings ransom. I also don't think we have the right manager but I don't know that I can pinpoint why cause the team also has sucked (and a mgr can only do so much) but the poor fundamentals, I can't ignore. Stupid players sure, but also reeks of lack of preparation or the right messaging. that became more obvious at the trade deadline, imho. so with that, does Hahn has to run everything past KW and the owners??? i still think a retool will work. nice post.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 06:08 PM) KW just needs to go away and let Rick have a chance to steer the ship. The conflicting approaches leave the Sox in purgatory, not enough commitment to either win now or to build up the system from the bottom up. AA left his job in Toronto because he did not want the micromanagement from Shapiro the way that KW is there to manage Hahn. Too many cooks in the kitchen. he loves the attention.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 04:14 PM) Who are all the star prospects KW got rid of? People like to play both sides of the fence. KW was an idiot and drafted no one who could play, and KW was an idiot, he traded away all his good prospects. You can't have it both ways. at the time, no one knew what the future would hold. until later the future played itself out.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 05:35 PM) They said somewhere that Bailey might not even be ready to later in season. Tho I'm sure the Sox would like those players but listing of what kinda cost it's going to take cincy is 1 team that i like to trade only for Frazier but his price alone would be steep, can you imagine chapman in that group???

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 05:48 PM) Yes you did. It's great to have a plan to acquire player X for player Y but what if the other team says, "you're high"? Then guess what, you don't have a plan. He has to see what is available at a price he is willing to pay. Lock yourself into acquiring a certain player or position, and you usually overpay. i am really in a weird mood. haven't sleep. so the best i can think of is from a movie quote. as mast yoda would say, "the future is never set, b/c it is always in motion"

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Nov 18, 2015 -> 01:00 AM) What you don't want to trade Fulmer for Cargo and his 2.1 WAR, bad defense, 2 years of control and 17.5M annual salary? i agree. don't get me wrong, i do not want cargo before and i still don't want him now.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Nov 17, 2015 -> 07:48 PM) Boston still prospects and MLB talent to trade for pitching and they have money to sign pitching so its really not a big deal using those prospects to help the back end of their pen. Fulmer has his small size and an extremely high effort delivery just to throw mid 90's whereas Montas has the big durable size and throws upper 90's with relative ease. However, both pitchers need to do a better job of controlling the strike zone and commanding their pitches. If I had to get on which sticks as a starter, it would be Montas. Montas is still very raw and young. 22 is way too early to give up on a pitcher like him. your analysis goes to prove that the sox prospects are at least 1 to 2 yrs away. so i wonder what the FO has in store to improve this ball club.

QUOTE (knightni @ Nov 17, 2015 -> 05:41 PM) http://www.purplerow.com/2015/11/16/974223...olorado-rockies i don't if it is me, but the sox does not come out too great.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Nov 17, 2015 -> 06:53 PM) It seems every pitcher we have in the system is being tagged as only a relief pitcher. Maybe we can go into the season with 12 or 14 relievers on the roster. I agree let's give our prospects the chance to start and Montas deserves that chance it is not that, what it is, is the team will need to force the issue, rush the prospects and or trade for pieces to start sooner.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 17, 2015 -> 04:36 PM) I am with you. He has barely made a mark in AA, let alone MLB. With an arm like that you give him every chance to start, as the bullpen is always there. If we were a title contending team, maybe then you use him in the pen, but where the Sox are now, there is no good reason for it. i hope you don't mind me interjecting, but the sox doesn't have anything else to trade from. and the team need pieces.

QUOTE (Joshua Strong @ Nov 17, 2015 -> 07:42 AM) Or the sake of debate, I am going to say prospects? What if you got a deal similar to what the Padres got for Kimbrel? Should you trade him in the offseason or closer to the ASB? that has always been the debate against me. esp since the trading deadline. this org is lacking prospects who can step in and be players in the majors. the team has a player step up and be counted or make it 2, but overall it is not enuf. the rebuild starts with a firesale to accumulate as many pieces to build from. i will trade establish players this yr for boat loads of prospects and still not call it a firesale. but i will get FA's to fill in the vacant spots. pipedreams. again lacking that, the sox and the FO needs to have an influx of players. how will that be done..... thru FA's and having the owners go in the red for a season to get the foundation. then supplant that with smart trades.... so if trading Robertson is the way to go, then fine, but then the team needs to depend on Nate Jones and in necessary a fa like Joakim Soria for 8 mil. but here is the flip side, why would any team needs to trade for Robertson, when they could do the same thing, talk to Soria??? this team is screwed with the direction it needs to go with owners who may not want to go that extra mile. but they again, it is a fans fault for not buying season tickets, right?? ref the bold, which team needs a cl and who will pay the price?? btw, cincy may be trading Chapman, so where does that leave the sox???

QUOTE (Joshua Strong @ Nov 17, 2015 -> 05:59 AM) If the Sox decide to go through another rebuilding year, then they have no need for David Robertson. What do you think they could get for him, if he were to be traded? oh boy............. i can see another thread of posters saying why is another thread is being made on a subject .. edit by ldf for being inappropriate to everyone. but for your question. the value of the prospect / players are different and have different value. 1. do they trade him for players 2. do they trade him for prospects 3. or both to many variables.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Nov 17, 2015 -> 06:09 AM) I'm not so anxious to dump Montas. Our mediocre bullpen sure could use him. if the fo will not sign FA's, then it falls on the trading of pitching prospects to get the missing pieces. if anything, his promise of being a possible elite rp should be enticing to some clubs. i an a huge fan of Adams, i will hate to see him go, but if the fo sees the need to trade him, he will be traded. i will hate it, but i hope for the best.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Nov 17, 2015 -> 04:15 AM) No offense to anyone but do we really need two threads about the same topic? I'm just asking is all. wowow i just thought i was seeing doubles.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Nov 17, 2015 -> 04:10 AM) Yes congrats, you figured out its all speculation at this point. i am not going to shoot the messenger so to speak. b/c you brought in a new link with some writer wishful thoughts. on that, thanks, i appreciate you finding it ..... and this is not ref to you. but imo, this person has his head up #$%@. just a new slant on something new. we have been talking about ideas and i will be honest with you. these posters comes up with some great stuff compared to what this person dribble on. main point for me is the adam laroche trade idea. that in itself says it all. again no reflections on you.