Chisoxfn

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 01:53 PM) <!--quoteo(post=3201965:date=Jul 22, 2015 -> 04:48 PM:name=Chisoxfn)-->QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 04:48 PM) <!--quotec-->You showed me one stat. One freaking stat. That is "all the other performance" issues. Most every team in baseball would take Jeff and plug him into their #2 or #3 spot. If you showed me the stat and he was getting hit massively harder and was no longer a good pitcher, sure, I could bite, but what I am telling you is that stat would regress anyway (due to change in leauge) and then you take away early starts where he might have been pressing, and you have a trend where that reduction in K/rate isn't near as significant. I work with numbers enough to know you can find any player and complain about them. Maybe we should stay far away from Mike Trout because his strikeout rate increased exponentially from the 1st two years. I can cherry pick stats all day long. Is their a signficant # of stats that say Shark isn't a solid #2 / frontline #3 and that I shouldn't expect that going forward? Has his stuff fallen off a cliff? I can't do any better to show Samardzija's K-rate rolling off a cliff than this image. Unfortunately the board won't let me embed it. If this isn't a trend of a guy showing his age I don't know what is. So I take that image and I look at the peak year and then the year after is the same (esentially) as the year prior to the peak (so the anomaly might be the one peak year). Then the subsequent year (which was last year), his NL only performance had a rate pretty close to the previous year (so again not really any decline). Since he moves to the AL, you had a decline (which is expected) and then this year a further decline, although some of it driven by some early struggles (where he might have been pressing or whatever else). Their is more to this story then just looking at the picture and I've explained potential reasons behind each and it is why I keep going back to the point that the $ value matters and what do our scouts and baseball people say about his stuff (is it degrading, etc)? Is their other issues / alarming problems with injuries or other things that are altering mechanics or command that are potential longer term issues? I don't know those answers but I do have potential explanations for those anomalies that make me far less concerned.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 01:48 PM) It dropped from 8.6 to 8.0 when he went to Oakland last year for >100 innings. It's down a lot even from where he was in Oakland. Not really..you take away that 1st month where he struggled and the difference in k/rate isn't much different then some of the other random variations he's had season to season.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 01:42 PM) Despite all the other performance issues that tell me to stay away and the fact that the white sox are piling up pitching prospects that should be in line before him, I also think the trump card remains "if the White Sox have $17.5 million to spend next offseason why on Earth are they spending it on their starting rotation"? You showed me one stat. One freaking stat. That is "all the other performance" issues. Most every team in baseball would take Jeff and plug him into their #2 or #3 spot. If you showed me the stat and he was getting hit massively harder and was no longer a good pitcher, sure, I could bite, but what I am telling you is that stat would regress anyway (due to change in leauge) and then you take away early starts where he might have been pressing, and you have a trend where that reduction in K/rate isn't near as significant. I work with numbers enough to know you can find any player and complain about them. Maybe we should stay far away from Mike Trout because his strikeout rate increased exponentially from the 1st two years. I can cherry pick stats all day long. Is their a signficant # of stats that say Shark isn't a solid #2 / frontline #3 and that I shouldn't expect that going forward? Has his stuff fallen off a cliff?

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 01:40 PM) seriously? this is all you have on a guy who supposedly has tons of articles written about him being a clubhouse cancer? expecially out of boston, a city that routinely destroys the character of players on the way out. Beane didn't like him cause Cespedes didn't listen to him. Him not listening to coaches advice on hitting approaches is different then being a clubhouse cancer. The trade of Cespedes and what he brought to the lineup and his fit in the clubhouse were both viewed as some (although it was probably more to do with injuries) as reasons why the A's faltered down the stretch. On an unrelated note, a lot of people liked Hanley in LA. Clubhouse cancer gets overused. Was AJ a cancer, depends on who you'd ask, but many saw him as a great player to have on your team. Everyone like him, nope.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 01:39 PM) His Krate went from 8.2 to 7.1 (last year to this year). Is that a decline, sure, but when you put it in context and assume some variabliity due to luck / other factors, he's basically been above average to great in terms of k-rate. This years rate at 7.1 would be "average", however, again if you adjust out his first month of baseball, you are talking about a K-rate in excess of 7.5 and back in the above average range. And whether you want to throw out those starts or not, I'm just saying the recent trend seems to indicate he's still an above average pitcher with above average stuff. He could have been pressing or a million other things he had to deal with. Additionally, this is a guy who moved from the NL to the AL (technically a little over halfway through last season), so I would expect his k-rate would come down given the fact that he stopped facing a pitcher 2-3 times a game. You can throw out what you want but in my world, I don't necessarily reach conclusions when you can throw out an early part of someone's season. if his stuff was detioritating then, I might have another case. In fact, to me, if you put the stats behind it and have conversations and actually think he's better then he is, you might truly get a value depending on what he wants to take (probably not cause no 30 year old pitcher who is nearing FA is going to sign a bargain contract or it at least isn't likely). And your k-rate is one thing and again k-rates can drop if someone is working on throwing less pitches / getting people out earlier in the count (to go deeper into games). It happens, pitchers make adjustments as they mature and he might still be working through some components. The HR rate being up is often times a fluky stat in and of itself and if you adjust for that, you'd have a guy whose ERA would be lower as well. Bottom line, I don't see any justification for staying away from him with a 20 foot pole. He's got relatively low mileage for his age and good stuff. Is he an ace, hell no. Is he a solid #2 and amazing #3, yes, yes he is, and if you can get him at a fair price, then you think long and hard about it. On a sidenote, i am an advocate of trading Shark and Q and then making a run at Shark again in the off-season, but if he truly were willing to sign a 4 year deal that would be a hometown discount, I'd be willing to listen.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 01:31 PM) The bolded is exactly what I'm focusing on with his K-Rate. His K-Rate is the worst of his career. you giving that list of his positive starts could be answered by me giving the list of his negative starts from the beginning of the year. Reality? Jeff Samardzija last year had the best strikeout rate of his career and the best numbers of his career for a reason - they're directly linkes. This year his K-Rate is very much down, 30% lower than last year, and that's not a statistical fluke, it's been that way the entire year. Almost entirely because his K-rate is down, he's a worse pitcher. That doesn't make him a bad pitcher, it makes him a middle of the order starter right now. He'll have some good games, like he did against Toronto, but when he can't put people away with the strikeout he'll also have some weak games like he did his next time out against KC. The balance between them is set based on whether or not he can strike people out. If people are putting the ball in play enough against him, he will get beat too often. If he's this pitcher again next year, he's a solid #3 starter that can help a team with a good offense to the playoffs. But...that huge, sudden drop in K-rate should be extremely concerning to any team wanting to bid on him. If he's giving up strikeouts for those other things...he's losing games because of it. If he's willing to lose games because of this strategy, then we should expect he's a 4-ish ERA pitcher in the future. If the White Sox win 86 games this year and need a pitcher in the middle of the rotation to put them over the hump and have a ton of money to spend, fine he's a candidate for that. For a long term deal, for a team that struggled this year, is extremely weak on offense, and keeps spending their first round pick on pitchers anyway? I wouldn't touch a guy whose K-rate plummeted like this with a 20 foot pole. His Krate went from 8.2 to 7.1 (last year to this year). Is that a decline, sure, but when you put it in context and assume some variabliity due to luck / other factors, he's basically been above average to great in terms of k-rate. This years rate at 7.1 would be "average", however, again if you adjust out his first month of baseball, you are talking about a K-rate in excess of 7.5 and back in the above average range. And whether you want to throw out those starts or not, I'm just saying the recent trend seems to indicate he's still an above average pitcher with above average stuff. He could have been pressing or a million other things he had to deal with. Additionally, this is a guy who moved from the NL to the AL (technically a little over halfway through last season), so I would expect his k-rate would come down given the fact that he stopped facing a pitcher 2-3 times a game. You can throw out what you want but in my world, I don't necessarily reach conclusions when you can throw out an early part of someone's season. if his stuff was detioritating then, I might have another case. In fact, to me, if you put the stats behind it and have conversations and actually think he's better then he is, you might truly get a value depending on what he wants to take (probably not cause no 30 year old pitcher who is nearing FA is going to sign a bargain contract or it at least isn't likely). And your k-rate is one thing and again k-rates can drop if someone is working on throwing less pitches / getting people out earlier in the count (to go deeper into games). It happens, pitchers make adjustments as they mature and he might still be working through some components. The HR rate being up is often times a fluky stat in and of itself and if you adjust for that, you'd have a guy whose ERA would be lower as well. Bottom line, I don't see any justification for staying away from him with a 20 foot pole. He's got relatively low mileage for his age and good stuff. Is he an ace, hell no. Is he a solid #2 and amazing #3, yes, yes he is, and if you can get him at a fair price, then you think long and hard about it.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 11:28 AM) More so than that, his performance this season suggests he would be a terrible choice for a long-term, high-dollar investment, particularly for a team where it's at best questionable whether they'd be able to field a decent team around him in the first year. His last 12 starts. 11 times he has gone at least 7 innings. 8 times he has given up 3 runs or less. 10 times he has given up 4 runs or less. 6 times he has given up 2 runs or less. 7 of those starts he has given up the same or less hits then innings pitched. I realize his strikeout numbers are down, but he is still getting 7K / 9 innings, which is pretty strong and has good ground ball rates (especially after his early struggles) while home run rate is up significantly (fluky stat, but from .6/9 inning to 1 / 9 inning). He also has a new hitting coach and might even be strategically pitching to contact. He is also pitching slightly deeper into games (on average) this year vs. last year. By no way am I saying he's having a great year, I'm just saying that I don't know how much of his production is combo of a little worse luck and a full season in a better league (vs. only partial season in AL in prior year and that was all in a pitchers park). Are strikeout numbers down because he's pitching more to contact and working on getting more groundball outs / early inning outs to go deeper into games? To me the question is what is the deal but I don't know that I would bet more on him being like he was thus far this year or more like him being how he was the past 4 years (blended average). Unless we think his stuff isn't their or has degraded.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 12:28 PM) Worth noting that this costs the White Sox an additional $4 million-ish as well (price of a reliever, maybe ~price of a decent backup catcher next year, etc.) Where do you get the $4M number from? I'm kind of confused. Comp picks don't get $4M. Or are you talking about paying him for the remainder of this year?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 11:10 AM) So, first problem - if the Dodgers are more willing to move Puig because they got Crawford back from most recent injury, then Cespedes doesn't necessarily fill a need for them? Beyond that, I'm too out of touch with LA to know how the team is looking at him right now. Talent-wise no they wouldn't do that, but getting rid of a guy sometimes you do things you wouldn't otherwise do. I am on a major get Puig mode. I think talents like that rarely become available. Heck, I'm even intrigued if the Dodgers make a knock your Sox off type deal for Sale. They are the team (along with the Cubs) who could give me the combo of young major league talent and top prospects.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 11:10 AM) So, first problem - if the Dodgers are more willing to move Puig because they got Crawford back from most recent injury, then Cespedes doesn't necessarily fill a need for them? Beyond that, I'm too out of touch with LA to know how the team is looking at him right now. Talent-wise no they wouldn't do that, but getting rid of a guy sometimes you do things you wouldn't otherwise do. I don't think Crawford has a place right now. Caught Rick Monday on yesterday (might have been the day before) and he basically said from what he's heard, no one really knows what Carl is going to do and what to expect. He might be moved(along with a mountain of cash). Also, when I was listening to Rick Monday, it reiterated how terrible our broadcasters are. I heard smarter dialogue in the 10 minutes with Monday then I've heard on every Sox telecast combined this season.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 11:05 AM) I meant Tigers. Price and Cespedes for Puig. Would the Dodgers do it? I think if I am Dombrowski, I would if he is waving the white flag. That would be an interesting deal. If I'm Dombrowski, I'd do it. I think maybe you could get Puig for Price on his own (major coup if you compare to what they gave up for Price, imo). Then see what you can get for Cespedes.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 10:55 AM) For some reason I disagree. You don't think the Dodgers would trade Puig for a rental? Price puts them over? I think they'd prefer using Puig for a cost controlled arm.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 10:53 AM) For some reason, I think Puig, if he gets traded, goes to the Dodgers in a Price deal. That would be awful. Tigers at least get something for it.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jul 22, 2015 -> 09:05 AM) Quintana. The Dodgers aren't trading Barnes for a rental, he is going to be there unless they get a guy that is under contract back in return, so for either Q or Hamels, other than that Barnes will not be traded IMO. Technically they don't need Barnes. They have an all star catcher who is still young (Grandal). I don't know if they trade Barnes for a rental, but it isn't like we are talking about a top 50 prospect.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 07:34 PM) What confuses me is the generation of kids whose parents never came to their sporting events turned into horrific helicopter parents themselves. My mom never saw one of my games in basketball or baseball. She never even asked me about the games except how we did. My dad went to one of our playoff games for some reason. He was shocked that our team was so good on defense. He told me nice game on defense but he didn't go to the next game. None of the kids cared. We liked the fact no parents went to our games. But these same people had kids and went to all their games screaming at umps, coaches, fellow parents, etc. Weird. Maybe most of the kids didn't like the fact that their parents didn't attend or cared? I don't know because my parents went to my sporting events when i was a kid. Their was only a handful of times at least one of my parents weren't at the games. Did they stay and watch practice, no, they dropped off and left (or if my sister was along, did something with her while I practiced). And by no means were my parents helicopter parents. I also don't know many people who didn't have parents attend. I rarely played in games where the stands weren't full (and it wasn't random people watching us play little league or AYSO...it was parents and/or grandparents). Now if you are referring to high school, I'd say that would differ and parents would come a lot less often (but that was partly because of the time of day the games were played...no longer all that conducive to working parents).

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:55 PM) It would have to be all four and even then throw in some low level guys or absorb a bad contract. Too much bust capacity in those four products to give up a generational talent like Sale. No ones untradeable but you need to quality and quantity in any deal for Sale. Under that scenario you are getting at least one of Pederson / Puig, both of whom are widely considered special talents and who have had major league success. Puig has had historical success over his first two seasons. Pederson not quite the same level but major upside is their. If you get both of them, well that completely rebuilds your outfield (Pederson / Puig / Eaton) is not just a fantastic and athletic defensive outfield, it is a very good offensive outfield. Your top of the order has a guy like Pederson (strikeout issues yes, but good OBP, to go with Eaton who I still believe in) and then you have Abreu in the lineup. You do have an issue of what to do with Avi / Melky / LaRoche as their are only enough at bats (you could live with two of them and keep guys fresh, kind of rotating at bats amongst the 3 OF spots and DH), but that probably doesn't work so well. Of course if the Dodgers were to do that sort of deal (and they wouldn't), Sox would have to give up one of Avi / Melky. Now you add in either Urias or Seager and that is another elite prospect (both which would fill need positions). This type of trade would completely turn the Sox potential almost immediately and the potential upside would be more then worth it. Again, could it all blow up in our faces, sure, but I think the Sox contend immediately if they were able to pull off Pederson / Puig / Urias (or Seager). I think the most likely scenario would be Puig / Urias / Seager and that deal would have a little more potential downside, although you are still looking at filling 2 major needs. If you get a package of Puig / Pederson / One of the Other, OMG, we'd be insane not to. I probably think a lot harder if it is Puig / Urias / Seager, but even then I think I'm in. If they added Barnes I'd be for sure in.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 09:29 AM) I suggested Puig+Barnes for Q+a piece in the other thread. You robbed my idea. Oh contraire...I added Guerrero. I do think you had a great idea though. I also presume the Dodgers would be insane to do it, but maybe they really are going to sell Puig low.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:06 PM) Just so I say it again...a comp pick is an abjectly terrible return for a player like this. When I looked through the comp picks over recent drafts, I think a reasonable result of a comp pick is a player with a 50% chance of making the big leagues and about a 10% chance of being a really good player/all star...with a 5 year gap before most guys contribute if at all and occasionally a bit faster. That's like the ultimate "rebuilding" move, a guy who is years from helping if at all. A B+ player, if he can fit into the lineup in the next 2 years, is vastly preferable to that to me, unless we're finally ready to admit this team won't be competitive until 2018 or later. At least get something that can help the big league roster in the next few years out of this. One thing you have to consider is what is a "comp" picks value a year from when you drafted him. Depends on who you grab, but while the long term return might be neglible due to bust rates, you might have a pretty valuable trade chip a year out. A risk still clearly exists and if you intend to keep the pick long term and develop, you are right that for a team trying to contend now, you are likely better opting for the more major league ready return. However, it is still leverage that you have. I'd argue we dangle him and Q and have an idea as to whether Shark is interested in coming back long-term. Maybe the plan is to try and sign him in FA and get some assets for him now and bring him back. You always run the risk that other teams blow you away in FA (vs. trying to get him to agree now). To your point, would you rather bet on Q or Shark long term, the answer is probably Q (especially given the contract), but if you truly could turn Q into Puig +, then I have a hard time not making that move as you could drastically alter the club while opening up a hole, but a hole in an area where we have a far better track record (and a stable of potential options).

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:57 AM) The difference between Flowers and our OFs is that all of our OFs have upside. So while a 2-win upgrade would feel like a 2-win upgrade anywhere, you're far, far less likely to get it out of Flowers than you are out of Eaton or even Garcia. Obviously I've convinced myself Alexei is much more likely to turn up for 2-wins as well. At 2B, we at least have a couple defenders and several prospects who could break out. Catcher is a wasteland. i agree that 3B is just as big a problem, maybe moreso. But I don't think we should be ready to tolerate replacement-level at any point on the diamond. Even if it means picking up some zombie veteran who can give us 1 WAR for a few million bucks. I would argue the upside of Garcia, but it depends on how you view his defensive upside. If you don't think it is significant, then it would take massive offensive upside to make him very valuable. I think 3B and Corner outfield are massive holes. I'd also argue shortstop is as well, but again, shortstop is a bit of a wasteland (although not to the same extent as catcher). Sure if you have someone above average their, it is a major win, but we fail so significantly in the corner outfield and at 3B. I won't discuss 2B because I think we have internal options.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 09:49 AM) I disagreed last year with this sentiment and said the power would come from the guys they have. Now I actually think that the lack of power is becoming a major concern. We're 28th in the big leagues in HR and there's no obvious help coming in that department unless Abreu suddenly finds whatever he had last year or Garcia completely revamps his approach. Esp. in the ballpark we play in, that's terrible. For a front office that focused on "bringing in power bats", which it sure looked like they were...28th in the big leagues in HR is not something they should be particularly proud of. We could maybe get by with that if we had a lot of really good hitters overall, maybe that is the solution since we're not likely to be finding those guys any time soon...but man, it really would be nice to hit a ball out of the ballpark on occasion. We're not going to be able to put up with very many "below replacement" players if we have to rely on every position being a solid, low-power hitter. Problem is we are 28th in homers so typically when you are light on power, you would presume you are high on speed and defense (since usually their are few players who can run, hit for power, and play awesome defense), but we are light on power and light on top baserunning and elite difference. Literally it is hard to find a team that from a position player perspective is as futile as the White Sox, when you consider the trifecta of defense / baserunning / hitting.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 10:33 AM) Matheny also doesn't have a passive attitude either. He's a cerebral former catcher with great leadership skills. Passive attitude has nothing to do with this. He might be smarter or better or any of the other, but facts are facts. He had zero coaching experience prior. Whether being a catcher made him smarter or not could be true, it might not. Point is he had no previous major league experience, but he is widely considered a great manager. I also don't think 1 year or two years as an assistant really does that much either. Being a play for 15 seasons teaches you a lot. One major difference is Matheny came into an organization with a history and a way about doing things and developing players that was proven and successful and in theory inherited that (and was really developed within that philosophy himself). Robin came into one that had made the change to Buddy Bell and his methods but I think we've gotten to a long enough range where we can say that hasn't worked. I think you can say the GM could change that but it means total culture change everywhere and we haven't necessarily had that. If I am the Sox, I look at Gardy who came from an organization with a rather successful track record of building an organizational philosophy built around fundementals and I see if he can help change that culture and instill it. Doesn't mean everyone is fired and it won't change overnight, but you get everyone on the same page from what is hopefully a proven track record of success and you foster and build it.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 10:07 AM) Maybe it's time to ask the question again...what haven't they changed? They haven't changed the way they treat minor leaguers, they haven't improved their effectiveness in that, they haven't change the philosophy of buying expensive, mid-level free agents, they haven't changed the philosophy of sacrificing depth for front line guys, they haven't changed their philosophy on defense, they haven't changed anything that allows them to turn what talent they do acquire into big league contributors. Changing the names on the door but continuing to do things that are failing consistently is not likely to change the consistent record of failure. One key thing left out...if it was the owner pushing that, is what the GM's response was? Did the GM think this would work? Did the GM advise against it? Did the GM say that there was a particularly high risk that things would go wrong and it would cause a major setback that would hurt the team even in 2016-2017? Your statements suggest the GM was forced unwillingly into the type of moves that continue failing for this team. If the GM cautioned against those moves in private, which we'll never know, fine that's a logical reason to hold onto him and maybe we'll actually get the owner who learns his lesson. If not, if the GM was on board with them, then the GM endorsed that failure just as much. This is the one spot that you and I disagree, but I don't think much of what we did necessarily set us back that much. I don't think LaRoche contract decimated the club and I don't think the Melky deal did either, but I suppose that one was more risky given the extra years. I still think you can spin Shark today and get the equivalent of what we gave up (and as I've long said we traded from a surplus given the Semien was the primary chip). In fact, I think we could get more, so one could argue (and none of us were privy to the conversations) that Kenny and Rick told JR, okay, we can try to make a push, give it our best, but whatever we do, we will ensure ourselves we have ability to pivot after this year depending on how things go (as we know this team can only contend if all of these things go right vs. even with x and y going against us, we'll still contend). No point in you and I arguing this back and forth since we both see these differently regarding what the Sox did this off-season. You think it set us back, I happen to have a differing opinion, but that is a seperate argument. None of us know that conversations between JR / Rick / Kenny and what went down and we also don't know strategically what they have in mind, but my presumption is we'll at least find out if our return for Shark exceeds what we gave up (on paper) in the next few days.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 10:03 AM) The main point in all of this that's missed is that Ventura has no previous coaching experience on any level outside of his kids' teams. Who gets hired to a top level job by any sane/employed person that has zero experience in lower levels to show that they actually know what they're doing? Mike Matheny didn't have any experience.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 09:58 AM) But from the periods you are discussing, they have made changes. Laumann does the draft. Hahn is the GM. Marco Paddy was hired. Ventura is a change. They have done exactly what you are calling for except for one guy, and now, all of a sudden, after a winter of giddiness from Sox fans. Soxfest sellouts, everyone bowing to Hahn, failure happens. Guess what? Now all those moves that couldn't have been more praised by media and the fans, they had nothing to do with Rick Hahn. It clearly was Kenny Williams, the guy that did build the only team that has won in about 100 years, now hasn't a clue, and is forcing Hahn to sign players, and has a gun to JR's head telling him he has to approve the payroll increase. That's fine and dandy, but now let's get back to the facts, which aren't so entertaining. JR was told his team had a lot of holes and was a bit away from contending. JR wanted to win right away and told his guys they needed to do what they could to make that happen. They don't have much they can trade away for anything that helps, but they took that, and got Samardzija. They did the other thing they could do and signed several free agents. This wasn't KW running the ship, this was JR. Maybe KW goes to Toronto or somewhere else this offseason, but he and Hahn did what JR ordered. Baseball, not being like other things in life, sometimes doesn't go as planned no matter how much effort and thought you put into it. I don't disagree with anything that you said, but I also think we have decided that Hanh is our guy and I think he deserves that shot and Kenny should be praised for what he did, but he also wants to be in the details. Yes, having multiple guys who know things and are smart baseball people are great, but I think in this case, the direction should come from Hahn. We clearly think he is a sharp bright mind and right now Kenny is still pretty involved. Clearly JR likes it that way and has a lot of faith in Kenny (and to a large extent, rightfully so), but we have two guys that want to be fully involved and that can lead to competing priorities. That said, a lot of what happened this off-season, and the speed in which it occurred, had to do with JR's wishes. However, the lack of a farm system, etc, did happen largely under Kenny's watch so we were put in this position to rebuild under Kenny and yes, under Kenny we also won a world series and at times looked like we could be major players for a long time. Unfortunately, on field performance largely didn't work itself out and unfortunately, it doesn't seem to just be bad luck, as we have consistently under performed (or so it would appear) and at some point I think it isn't bad luck, but probably something we are doing wrong as an organization.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 09:36 AM) So they changed the manager, and the GM, and admits JR isn't going anywhere...why doesn't this article cut out the BS and directly say what it wants to say? It's obvious Lip wants KW's head.I think Hahn deserves his chance to shine on his own. I also think we need a cultural change from a player development perspective. I am not saying someone else would do a better job then Robin, necessarily, but I do think Gardenhire is the type of guy that has a track record of success (and yes, when he had lousy players, his team stunk too, so players matter and it is why under no scenario am I saying this is all Robin's fault, but I also don't think Robin is anything special) and I think our problems on player development are deep grained and the poor fundamentals seem to keep coming through so I would like a manager who has a real philosophy that he can push down, especially on the position side and Gardy and the Twins philosophies are ones that I would support and I do think it would be a positive culture change for this organization. Showalter is another one of those guys but obviously he isn't available.