Chisoxfn

Great piece Lip and I wonder if the best thing for the organization would have been to let Ken Williams go to Toronto (maybe we'd have even gotten a prospect) in the off-season. I commend Kenny and think he was extremely creative and he kept us relevant. He was never afraid to swing for the fences and he built the first White Sox world series champion you / I were able to see. However, he's been here a long time and we have failed to go on a sustainable run. We have a new guy here, Rick Hahn, who while he came up and worked in this organization, he brings his own fresh ideas and with Kenny involved, it is hard for any of us to get a read on who Rick Hahn is. I think at this point, Kenny should move his separate ways so he can try new things (and Kenny himself has said numerous times, he misses the details, he misses the GM duties) and we should see what Rick can do. I do think that whatever happens, we need an organizational change in the minors, with a focus being on the position side. The hard part is, those types of changes take a long time to evaluate progress, but the Buddy Bell era has produced absolutely zilch when it comes to position talent. We have done extremely well on the pitching side and I think that is a credit of the consistent philosphy preached throughout the organization when it comes to arms and it is a testament to Coop, Hahn, Kenny, all the minor league pitching coaches and of course the scouts. Sverson was supposedly doing something similar, but I think the culture from the position side comes down from the manager and even the GM and we need to do something like the Twins did for so long under Tom Kelly (and eventually Gardy). To be frank, I think the Sox turning control of the baseball responsibilities to someone like Gardy (while retaining Coop) would be a tremendous boom for the Sox.

Thought it might be beneficial to have a thread talking about some potential catching prospetcs, given it might be a position that Hahn targets. I would point out that in terms of priority, I'd put catcher behind 3B, SS, and to be frank, a corner outfield spot (unfortunately, that corner outfield spot can only be opened up by moving a DH or one of our other outfielders). I would point out that if a team were interested in an outfielder and had a AAA catcher that we thought could develop into a top 10 catcher I would make that trade. One name that could be out their is Austin Barnes of the Dodgers. Dodgers just called him up as they put AJ Ellis (their current backup) on the DL. Dodgers don't have to move him (as Ellis is 34) but Grandal clearly is lodged in his path (unless Dodgers are willing to move Grandal for pitching). Sox have some parts that match up and I'll be frank, I'd be on board with a deal involving one of our pitchers and a reliever (and if they want a backup, we could give them Soto) for Puig and Barnes. I'd probably be willing to throw in a prospect. I'd also have interest in Guerrero if the Sox could work something out with Guerrero. Guerrero's trade value has to be near nil and his production has fallen and he hasn't gotten much any playing time (which based upon what I've read in the LA Times, is a big driver of his offensive struggles). He isn't playing because his defense doesn't play at 3rd, however, I don't know that it is because he can't play third. It has more to do with his terrible contract and how he'd be a FA had the Dodgers sent him down (or had the right to) so he really never got much of an opportunity to work on his defense at 3rd (where he doesn't have a lot of experience) or in the outfield. I think his bat plays (tools are strong) and the skillset is their. If we could work something out with him (to keep him around in the future), their could be some nice upside in getting Guerrero and giving him the time now to put in the work at 3rd (as long as our scouts see the potential to play their) and you might even be able to get a 3rd basemen of the future. No idea how willing Guerrero is to work with a team but Sox could clearly offer him plenty of at bats. 27 years old and in his first time in the minors (last year, in a shortened season due to his ear being bit off by Miguel Olivo) he put up a .994 OPS with 17 homers in 77 games (15 walks and 55 strikeouts).

Unfortunately, these pieces are far more entertaining then this season. I really can't think of another season, outside of the 1995 season (after the strike ended). I had expectations of a world series that year and the guys that looked like young aces faltered. I suppose the year after was another disappointing, having added Albert Belle to the team. A duo of Thomas and Belle could have been the greatest ever. Crazy how the Sox have had a few different teams (those 90 teams) and then again in the early 2000's and really again after 05 (that 06 team reloaded with Thome and faltered in the 2nd half) where we had chances to be a perennial division winner (playoffs are a crapshoot....while I think the goal every year is to win the world series, its best to build your team to make the playoffs every year, if you do that, your odds of winning the series grow greatly).

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 08:25 AM) and still we watch, hoping for miracles. Addicts. Just hoping that the next series of moves are in our favor. Sox are due for some good luck, right?

This team could use a guy like Showalter. Buck would be just the right voice for this club. Too bad he's in Baltimore. If anyone could solve fundemental issues and change a culture, it would be Buck. I'll be honest, as much as it cringes me, I'd also fully support Dusty Baker (I realize he runs pitchers into the ground, but he's also been a pretty consistent winner despite his hatred for all things sabs). Won a lot in San Fran, won with the Cubs (hard to do), and then again with the Reds (who thought he didn't do enough, so they got rid of him, and then the Reds turned into a bigger dumpster fire). Okay so Baker probably isn't the actual solution, but I think even more so in this era of pitching, the AL is going to have to adjust and move to a more NL style of play. That 1 run makes a much larger difference in an ERA where runs are down and therefore the execution, the baserunning, the little things that became so watered down in the steroid era (and even more waterdown in the AL where the DH's were the most fully loaded roiders around) are now so critical and a lot of these AL squads just aren't as schooled in it or the philosphies still seem to be a bit in the stoneage. Sox philosophy sure seems like it. The pitching and belief to have strong pitching, we can all agree with. But we have lousy baserunning and lousy defense. To me, that is inexcusable without having some massive clotters out their who can out homer everyone.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 07:27 AM) Gordon Beckham supposedly needs to be released. His WAR -0.1. Eduardo Escobar is the best SS the Sox have produced recently according to you, his WAR -0.5. Facts suck when hyperbole is available. Semien's 0.6 WAR and falling and 28 errors at SS doesn't exactly warrant long term answer at that position. Nor does it suggest he would make a difference on the 2015 White Sox. The A's were always insane to think Semien could play at short. If you move him to 2B, you have some value, but his value is easily tradeable for a guy like Shark. No matter what has happened with Shark and our season, I still believe we will get better prospects back for Shark then we gave up (even with Shark's performance being down a bit). We also traded from a surplus (we have a million potential 2B candidates).

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 07:33 PM) L. Garcia in my opinion is another one of those "Four A" players (and the Sox have a bunch of them). Impressive stats in the minor leagues but when they get their chance at the major league level they can't do a thing. Garcia had a chance last year and didn't show much. Sox need to do better than him. Mark Leury wasn't ever highly touted. He probably will find his way somewhere at some point (for another organization) as he has some useful skills. Problem is, he just isn't near the defensive player the current crop of guys are (Sanchez / Saladino) and both Saladino / Sanchez have better tools, including the hit tool. I don't know if either will hit enough to be starters or be elite enough defensively, but I think they are winning ball players (cliche, yes) from the perspective that they play good defense, are smart and good baserunners, have decent bat control, etc. Micah is the guy with the upside but I am all for giving plenty of at bats to all three to see what we have. Very little risk given our current situation and it gives the Sox front office far more time to evaluate these guys. I'd also like to point out that we aren't talking about top prospects here, so if we can hit on these guys, you get way more upside then selling them to someone else. And there are a plenty of these type of players who turn out to be good, quality players.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 04:49 PM) Agreed, time to get him some much needed MLB at bats Completely agree. I really wouldn't be surprised to see Ramirez moved soon to create room for the at bats of all of our young middle infield prospects (excluding Anderson...well until his Sept callup).

QUOTE (Bigsoxhurt35 @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 04:12 PM) I'm not a fan of moving him but that's the package that we'd need. I'll be honest, I'd trade Sale for any three in that group.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 04:45 PM) Morales is in the same division as the Sox pretty much facing the same pitchers minus his own team mates. LaRoche was a bad signing . Way too old and terrible stats against lefties, even his 2nd half last year which normally was his strong suit came way down and could be construed as more evidence of decline. And they still play him against lefties . That's really sad. I'm pretty sure I remember Balta saying that the Sox would do just that and he's been right. Someone should pull the LaRoche signing thread. I can't remember if I said anything about it at the time . Morales didn't have to adjust to league's like LaRoche. LaRoche is also notorious slow starter (that said I know he has struggled a lot the past month).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 02:34 PM) I could see the Yankees looking at his numbers as presented in that article and taking a flyer on him also. Another fair point. The thing I like about both teams is they could have some intriguing C listers who have some potential change of scenery upside. If we could get a nice arm that is either raw and could maybe start or a projectable reliever (maybe failed minor league starter with a big arm), I'd be on board. Would be awesome to get a competitive balance pick but not sure Pirates would give that up for Alexei (never know). Probably best bet is fine a young foreign player who is still years away that you think has some upside (1 in 100 odds but at least you see some raw tools).

Pirates (as Balta suggested) would be a pretty good fit for Alexei.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 12:42 PM) They can't even touch the idea of cutting Beckham loose. Jeez. To be frank, Beckham has been more valuable then Bon (or said another way, a little less terrible) so I don't really have a problem keeping Beckham over him. Bottom line is Beckham was the 3rd worst positional player on the roster, which really says something. The Sox have quite a few very good to elite players and then a lot of guys who suck. Not a lot of just solid baseball players. The nice thing is, I actually think we have a few that look like they can be that (Micah / Sanchez / Saladino). I'm not sure whether they are all starters, in fact, I suspect only 1 is (Micah) but I think the other two have a place on a good roster and could prove me wrong if they hit a little better then I think they are capable of. And with Sanchez glove, if he could play above average D at SS, then I would think his bat comes around to play at short in this era. Saladino could fit that same description.

QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 12:30 PM) Who else is going to play SS next year? That's my thoughts. I don't think there is a viable option. Like the article said, he will end closer to his career averages. I would assume he finished in the .250-.260 range and with 10HR's and 60RBI. Still somewhat solid defense. If you can find me someone who can do that next year I'll take it. I guess you can make the argument maybe Saladino .... but he will not hit for doubles like Alexei does. People forget that stat. He had 35 doubles last year. Top 10 in baseball was 39. Also has had over 20SB over the past 3 years. Alexei is not our problem. Sure he's been bad this year. But he should be penciled in as our SS next year. Maybe give a few extra starts to Saladino who plays our Utililty role next year. Fill 3B and Catcher. Those are our black holes. 2B too ... but lets be honest .... they're gonna keep trying with Johnson and Sanchez. If you wanted to go another direction, you maybe see if you get lucky and Sanchez or Saladino hits enough and prove their glove plays at shortstop. To do that, you'd have to move Ramirez and basically ensure that Micah / Saladino / Sanchez all get significant playing time and at bats to get better intel on where you project everyone. I would be perfectly fine with that, as long as the Sox understand that if they tend to contend and they don't see something they like, they have to either make a FA signing (could very well bring Alexei back at that point or someone else as a stop gap to Tim Anderson) or they need to use chips to acquire someone (or to be frank, they could acquire that person in the Shark deal).

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 12:15 PM) Very happy to see Micah's development in AAA after being sent down. I really cannot take anymore Carlos Sanchez. He's a great little fielder but he just doesn't have the bat speed to be an everyday player. He has a .214 wOBA which, if he had enough PAs, would be the worst among MLB players. He also had the fifth worst percentage of hard hit balls according to Fangraphs. I think we have enough at bats to go around at 3B / SS / 2B if the Sox thought they saw enough in these guys and were ready to acquire someone else at one of those positions depending on how they evaluate everyone based upon their collective minor league careers to date, tools, and of course what they show at the major league level. This of course is dependent on moving Ramirez.

We open it up right around the trade deadline specifically for rumors, etc. It gets closed again when the rumors die down (typically sometime in August...given their tends to be a lot of news around waiver moves...that said, we'll see what is going on with the Sox and then make that call). I don't see Sox making a lot of waiver deals, although I would presume that Alexei / LaRoche / Danks would be potential candidates.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 10:53 AM) He is the 8th highest paid SS in baseball and this year is one of the worst overall. I wouldn't offer more than $3 Mil and if he refuses worse case pick up someone who can defend. Next year is another rebuild in the 3 year plan so you monitor Anderson and determine his future and the see who you can get in 2016. I think Ramirez gets more then 3M. I'd give him an incentive laden deal that guaranteed him around 5 and gave him upside for another 3 - 5. This could all change by the end of the season.

Excited to see what he does in some more extended play.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 09:26 AM) I think the White Flag Trade involved Wilson Alvarez, Roberto Hernandez and Danny Darwin to the Giants for six minor league players. The best of the bunch turned out to be Keith Foulke and Bobby Howry. Doug Drabek was actually released at the end of that 1997 season. He was there for the entire year going 12-11 with an ERA close to six. Mark Shows how you can misremember things. I remember Drabek on that squad and for whatever reason I thought he was moved at the time, but now I realize I had confused him and Danny Darwin in my brain. I always wonder what Lorenzo Barcelo would have been if not for arm problems. Caruso had that empty rookie year before crashing to reality as well. Boy could Caruso run though.

Ian Desmond would be an interesting buy low candidate. Have no idea what has caused his drop in production but he was coming off of 3 straight years with an OPS > .740 and has twice posted OPS > .840. Over past 3 seasons had averaged just over 3.5 WAR and just turned 30. Solid defensive player as well. Other then Desmond, I'd say Alexei is the next best candidate. Rollins is a pretty heady ball player but has struggled in LA (part of that may be effect of new stadium) but he's been trending downward for a few years. I also presume he wants to play for a contender (if he even plays a year from now). I am not counting Alcides Escobar as I'm going to assume their is no way the Royal's don't pick up that option.

A rare catch all that I will support, but this is for non White Sox related trade rumors (as sometimes that could generate / garner some Sox discussion). If Sox discussion occurs, we will split this out and put into a new thread!

I am going to close this as it is a catch-all.

Please post all trade related rumors / discussions within here. My prediction is we'll make our first trade by the end of the week!

QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 09:12 AM) any link so we can read it. It is in the 1st post of this thread.

QUOTE (LDF @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 09:07 AM) as much as i like the idea, the sox are still on line for 2 lousy contracts. Danks and Adam L. some 30+ millions dollars. for to start the new season. LaRoche isn't really a bad contract. He'll be in his walk year next year and I still bet on him coming around this year and have relatively respectable numbers, slightly below his 3 year trend. And at that price, I think you could move him (if not early in the season, by the deadline a team would be looking for a vet bat to add). I don't think the LaRoche / Danks contract, at this point, are reasons you don't sign Shark (given that both are done a year from now).