Chisoxfn

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 11:01 AM) No they are not. Maybe, maybe Fulmer. Possibly Montas if he has no down dips. None of the others will be. Montas was top 100 by some publications entering the year. He has had an injury but other then that he's got an ERA below 3 and a WHIP of just over 1.1. Micah Johnson also entered the year a top 100 prospect on some lists and while I realize he struggled a bit defensively he's raking in the minors and is still a fringe top 100 guy. Tim Anderson was top 50 by some and while he hasn't hit for as much power, his athleticism is their and he hasn't fallen out of the top 100. Spencer Adams / Danish have had their ups and downs but both are young for their respective leagues and still have upside. Both are outside the top 100 lists now but still far superior prospects to guys anywhere near an organization top 5 in 2012. I haven't even spoke of people like Hawkins who clearly still have talent or Rodon and others. This system was 12th by Keith Law entering the season and they absolutely haven't dropped back to 30th.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:51 AM) 1. In what world is Jose Abreu "One of the best hitters in baseball"? His OPS on the season is 10th out of qualified 1b and 39th out of all of baseball. 44th in RC+. His OPS is tied with Mike Moustakas (and Abreu gets the benefit of the Cell). 2. The Farm system will rank right back down at #30 this year, give or take whoever else is having an equally bad year. It was higher last year because of Rodon (Graduated) and some hope from players among Anderson and Danish, both of whom have seriously disappointed this year. 3. The White Sox drew 4,000 more fans/season in 2011 than they're drawing right now, there has been a large cut in ticket prices since 2011, and there will be another large drop in attendance next year. So while every other team is seeing that extra money, we're seeing continually eroding revenues. That makes it even harder for us to compete on an even footing. Abreu's OPS+ is 160 over his career. That would be amongst the top 10 in baseball in that timespan. The farm system will not rank 30th. Tim Anderson, Fulmer, and Montas are top 100 prospects. Our 2012 top prospect was Addison Reed (a closer) with Nestor Molina, Castro, Saldino, and Trayce rounding out the top 5 (Sickels). Our top 5 today is far superior to that and the depth is also stronger. Ticket sales are a very small part of revenues earned. And any of that shortage would be more then offset with increased revenue from revenue sharing / mlb tv deal. And even if you take 10M off that, we are still 50M better off and with actual young and talented players on the roster. I didn't say a lot but far more than that White Sox team had heading into 2012.

Fire Sale is the wrong course of business. You also have to remember as an organization, you need to be careful as to how you handle guys who you signed in the off-season. If you become an organization who quickly churns those guys, you will have a hard time signing guys in the future (without overbidding). With that said, Shark and Ramirez should clearly be moved, however, you should be careful as both could qualify for draft pick compensation, in which case, you have to make sure what you get is more valuable then the comp. I also wouldn't rush to move Alexei...I'd hope he would heat up and increase his value a bit. The other key is going to be probably moving another one of our starters, such as Q, if we can, to again, target young position talent. Or, moving some of our prospects for position talent. One way or the other those are the types of moves that must be made.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:12 AM) Every single word you just said can be said about this team and I think the farm system is worse. Oh and John Danks didn't sign his contract until after 2011. 2012 to 2016, 5 year deal. At that time John Danks was 1 year away from free agency and we chose to sign him that offseason. The albatrosses after 2011 were Dunn and Rios. I have said it too many times now on contracts. And I was referring to end of 2011 (since I said 3 or 4 years ago and happened to pick that team) and the team heading into 2012. That roster had Dunn and Rios and Danks now signed long-term (2012). Oh and for the record, salary inflation is a real thing in baseball. Avg player salary is up 6.56/yr in MLB since 2011 (or 33% over the total period...3.2M in 11 to 4.5M in 15). So if I take the 2011 payroll (end of 2011), which was 129.2M and increase it by the 33%, in today's payroll dollars, the equivalent payroll would be 171.83M. The current 2015 payroll is $110M. So our payroll is $61M less then the MLB inflation adjusted 2011 payroll and we have one of the 5 best pitchers in baseball (Sale), one of the best hitters in baseball (Abreu) and another one of the best pitchers in baseball (Quintana). We also have the top pitching prospect in baseball (or one of them) in Rodon and the farm system ranks significantly higher then it did in 2011 (in terms of all publications).

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:07 AM) Get off the high salaried 2013. Dunn was crap. Konerko was a shell of himself. Peavy and Rios were traded. Be fair. If anything, the surprising success of the 2012 team probably set some things back a season. 2012 was why Robin got a pass. I was stunned at how that team was able to contend (and generally played strong fundamental ball). 2013 was way too high of expectations and team played about how it should have and I'd say last year was more of the same. This year, we should not be this bad. This team isn't a playoff team with any manager but it might be a bit better and end of the day, at some point, you have to send messages and we aren't going to cut every player so sometimes the manager is the route you have to take.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:05 AM) 100% disagree. http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/2011.shtml Not seeing it. High payroll, below .500 team, lousy farm system. Sale was not yet an established ace (pitching out of the pen and not a lot of people had faith in him being an elite starter or a starter for that matter). Danks was already lousy and overpaid, etc. Abreu didn't exist. We had more bad contracts and no stars (including a few more years of Dunn on the hook). Now all we have is Melky (2 more years) and Danks (1 more year) of albatross vs. Dunn / Danks both for a long time and that team had no young talent to off-set it. We didn't have Sale / Q / Rodon / Abreu (in the off-season I'd have said Eaton but now we'll see if last year was a fluke) who are values. This team is so much closer.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 10:01 AM) Sports isn't like a regular job. If you fired a GM for misses, you would be forced to give them 2 month contracts. A GM should get a window to build a franchise. If you went too short on him, the incentive and decisions made would never be in the best interest of the LT health of the franchise. I am not writing off Hahn. He has done good things and we are still better off today then we were 3 or 4 years ago. However, he has to show that he has learned from some of his mistakes, etc. Now hopefully Sox go on some crazy terror and we all forget this, but with the way they play fundamentals, that is nearly impossible at this point.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 09:53 AM) ? I am blaming the players. Look at every manager's record that has been around awhile. Sometimes they come in first, sometimes they come in last. Do they just get really smart one year, and stupid the next? Baseball isn't like the other sports where you install an offense and defense and call plays. The manager/coach doesn't play as big of an in game role. In fact, it isn't even close. If we saw guys not trying, I would agree something there needed to be done. I am amazed the offense is this bad. I think even the guys who thought this team may suck are amazed the offense is this bad. The defense, we all knew wouldn't be good. The baserunning has been bad. They brought in Vince Coleman for that. Seemed like a solid move, but guys are worse. If, in my mind, I thought there was a 1% chance the reason the White Sox suck this year and the past 2 was Robin and the coaching staff, I would be right on board with everyone else who wants them all gone. The talent level was short the last 2 years. This year, the players, almost all of them, haven't played up to expectation. It's easy to blame that on one person, but it wouldn't be correct. Melky Cabrera isn't hitting. Adam Eaton isn't hitting, running bases or defending. Jeff Samardzija isn't pitching like a 9 figure pitcher. How can that be on one guy and not the guy actually playing? All fair points, but as a manager you are hired to be fired.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 09:41 AM) But as Robin said, they practice it hundreds of times. There is no doubt that was Eaton's ball. Alexei shouldn't give the impression he is camping under it because, like most teams it will make the OF pull up. They shouldn't, but they do. It's still Eaton's fault all the way. People can blame Robin all they want. I just think that whichever other guy they want to have the job, if they were given the exact same circumstances, it's not like there would have been an extra 15-20 wins a year. IMO, firing Robin, and I don't think they will, isn't going to solve the problems. It will make some people happy, but they still won't go to games, and they will find someone else to blame when the same crap keeps happening. If Robin was fired today, and they continued to play like they have played, I am certain the fire Steverson threads would be popping up next. Every team practices it. What are the consequences, what is the tone of those practices. I don't know, but it can make a difference. No one is saying Robin doesn't work (or at least I'm not) but maybe his style doesn't work with this team. He clearly isn't helping the situation and quite frankly this is 2+ years of being a horrible fundamental baseball team. Yes, that is on the players, but the manager also gets the fall for something like that. That is how baseball works. Am I saying it is all Robin's fault, absolutely not, but after 2+ years of being the worst fundamental team in baseball (with no progress being made), changes need to be made.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 19, 2015 -> 08:54 AM) So the White Sox struggles the past 3 seasons are all on Robin. If they would have hired Dave Martinez, there probably would have been playoff appearances and capacity crowds? White Sox struggles are first and foremost on the players and the team that put the roster together. In some cases, hands were tied and rebuilding was going on. I'd say Robin is the least of the perpetrators but he's also the easiest to get rid of. And I've consistently said, look at the roster he's been given, you are going to suck defensively no matter what. However, seeing Alexei and Eaton, who should still be avg. and above avg defenders, respectively, also stink, is a disturbing trend.

Taj is out for 4 months. Get better Taj. Would be great if this surgery would strengthen his ankles. Bummer he won't be able to have a normal off-season though.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 10:56 PM) “That’s just bad,” Ventura said. “I’m tired of talking about it. They know it. We work it all of spring training — you’ve probably seen it a few hundred times that we work on it. I’m getting tired of talking about it because that’s just bad.” “They need to catch it — that’s what they need to do,” Ventura said. Eaton ranks 25th out of 25 qualified center fielders with minus-9 Defensive Runs Saved while Ramirez is 25th of 27 shortstops, with minus-7. “You guys ask the questions when it’s not going well,” Eaton said. “Like I said, it didn’t hurt. It was a tough play, but it was glaring because it’s, like I said, we’re not playing well. But if we would have won the game 5-2 it probably wouldn’t even have been a blip on your radar. Like I said, kind of a tough play but it’s probably somewhere where I need to take charge as a center field and call him off, but it’s a good thing it didn’t hurt us in the end.” http://www.csnchicago.com/white-sox/robin-...&ocid=yahoo Not sure that's the best attitude to have about fixing mistakes...well, the run DIDN'T score so it's not a big deal...or, if we had won, it's STILL not a big deal. How does that solve the problem? Just the use of PROBABLY is annoying to read...you're either in charge of the outfield or you're not. "I have to take charge...(or)...Everyone knows I'm in charge of the outfield" not "probably somewhere where I need (not have to)..." SIGH. That quote is damning and complete crap. Thats it, someone needs to come in and clean house. What this team really needs is Showalter. That guy, more then any guy in baseball, is incredible at cleaning up fundamentals and changing the demeanor of a clubhouse. He also tends to wear out his welcome, but he's done a fantastic job in Bmore. But the quote from Eaton is reflective of the culture that must exist (whether Robin intended that or not)...the pride over miscues and the point that it shouldn't happen, just isn't being done. And while it is fully the players responsibility, the careless shows on the field consistently. It isn't just the front office putting poor defenders out their, it is also on players making poor and stupid plays more then most teams and its been a trend all but the first year Robin was here. Is firing Robin the solution, absolutely not, but I think he is part of the problem. Unfortunately the front office and a lot of our roster is also part of the problem.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 02:05 PM) So is this Warriors team an all-time great team? How would they have fared against the 90s Bulls, the Spurs in Duncan's prime, Shaq and Kobe's Lakers? Hell even the 2012 Heat? They'd have got whipped. I don't think they were that great. Record was good but eye test was poor in the finals. I think Bulls / Shaq and Kobe Lakers route them.Heat is hard to say cause they shouldn't have won their one title. Manu choked the Spurs title away vs. Heat winning.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 01:27 PM) Traded from Spurs for a radio announcer to be trained later.from Nah...that was Wennington (or is Perdue also an announcer)? Bill had the sweetest base line jumper in league history, haha.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 01:25 PM) How'd they get Rodman if it wasn't a FA addition? IIRC, Will Perdue was traded for the Worm. I think Bison Dele was the one free agent addition that was at all a memorable player and their were other reasons Bulls were able to get him. This is purely going off of memory. Our draft picks were also always crap and that was an era where you couldn't buy picks (then you got into the new cap era and all of a sudden you could buy picks, like the Bulls did to get Deng (they basically bought the Suns pick IIRC). I also think Bison Dele had some major holdout (again going off my memory) with the Clippers and somehow made his way to Bulls very late in the season (as an unsigned FA). I think he came to Bulls cause he wanted to showcase his talents during post-season and go elsewhere. Turned out to be a great move for purposes of Bulls. Other than that I can't remember a FA doing anything worth a damn. Note: Take that back. We did sign Ron Harper and he had a nice rejuvenation with the Bulls (I think he was coming off injuries, etc, so it wasn't at all a major signing). Harper was 30, pissed at the Clippers, and was coming off an ACL injury.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 01:01 PM) My exact phrase would have been "last year he was above average as a 5th starter and below average as a 4th starter" which is true. Unfortunately he did not perform at that level this year. Therefore he's been replaced. I'm also not concerned with the payout JR's heirs will receive. For example, I want them paying the salary of 2 managers because one of them was removed while still under contract in the middle of 2015. I assume you're also ok with that since you want to minimize the payout JR's heirs will receive. All this said, if you are average at all spots, you are an average team so goal should be above average most spots, average other spots and then you obviously could contend with a few slightly below avg spots. Sox have a few > ab avg and a lot of way

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 12:12 PM) The Jordan era cap is nothing like the cap today. It really isn't that much different, in fact, I'd argue it is easier for good teams to add talent today (vs. mid 90's). Only major difference was individual players could get paid even more. Bulls for years could almost never bring anyone of any value in. Vs. today's age with the MLE and I'd say it is easier for good teams to add quality players vs. the 90's. I can't think of any major FA the Bulls signed during the Jordan era (after they started winning) vs. you look at a lot of title teams today and they get the MLE each year and can continue to add quality players while benefiting from the bird right rules (as long as you are willing to pay the tax).

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 12:26 PM) Who do we have available who can fill his roster role? Depends on if we think we still plan on trying to contend. Sanchez slides into that role with Micah getting the spot he deserved where he can work at the big league level the rest of the year and give us a far better expectation of whether we can mark 2B as a position we don't have to worry about going forward.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:56 AM) Honestly not really. We always took two big vacations a year growing up. One was to the beach (usually Jersey shore) and one was to a historical place, such as Boston, DC, Toronto, Montreal/Quebec City etc..So I've always been more interested in seeing new places and doing new things rather than stationary places. I'm not really a theme park person, so that's probably it. I'm cool with going to the Jersey boardwalk once or twice for a couple hours on a vacation and then I've had my fill. I should point out, I never went to Disneyland until I was an adult. My family vacations were to visit family, but I did grow up in OC so Disneyland could be accessed with a pass very easy when I was a kid. Most everyone in the area I knew had some form of a pass because it was so easy to get to (and back then, wasn't near as expensive as it is today).

QUOTE (LDF @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:48 AM) that is kind of a misnomer.... in the nba, the teams can go over the cap and get penalize according to a league approve penalty. hockey has a hard cap. It is still a cap. And while you can go over, that has a lot to do with bird rights, etc.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:33 AM) Danks and Melky is enough. That's 25% of our payroll for 2016 already down the drain. How much have we complained about Danks's contract being in the way the last 2 years? We now have 2 of those for 2016. Meanwhile...the guys we have who are currently "really cheap" start being less cheap. We start feeling that next year as Sale, Quintana, Abreu, get more expensive. In 2017 that trend continues. We've already got $70 million committed for 2017. But you can't just look at that side. We have Sale / Q / Abreu in 2016 who more then off-set that based upon their production. And 2016 is 1 year, I'd be concerned if we had 3 to 4 years or something like that. We are 1 year from that being removed and when you are 1 year away it is also easier to move at least a portion of that burden to another club (maybe not much, but 10% is possible). And like I've said, I can't fully put Melky in Danks range. Danks is a pure sunk cost. Melky is 2.5 months into the season and has gotten awful luck. Not saying he should be hitting .300 and being great, but his performance is better then the stats indicate and I would be stunned if these past 2 months were the player we will get the next 3 years. Not saying he'll ultimately be worth the contract but he isn't going to accumulate this negative WAR the entire contract. At least not at this stage in the process can I personally assess / come to that conclusion.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:31 AM) The White Sox have been way more patient with their young players than Soxtalk would like. Beckham? Viciedo? Seriously? Interestingly enough, they have not been very patient with their young 2B this year. I don't know how they could have handed the 2B job to Micah without understanding the defensive mistakes he'd make and growing pains that would come. I presume the answer probably lies with, they thought they could overcome that in other areas and didn't realize how many other guys would stink, etc, that they had to make the panic move and that was the only panic move they could even try.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:24 AM) I don't know what the Royals broadcast situation is, but at this point they're massively outdrawing us and massively outdoing us on interest. I very much disagree with us being in as good of a position as the Twins. The fact that they're already competitive this early, before the bulk of the talent they've built up arrives...should terrify us. I probably agree about the Indians being as ****ed as us, they probably have a slightly better system but still weak and that's not something worth bragging about. They're similarly stuck with bad contracts for veterans and don't really have an obvious path to getting better in the next couple years without doing something drastic. I continue to point out that our bad contracts for vets really consists of 2 players and given the better contracts we have, they ultimately negate each other (if not move us still to being in a positive position from a standpoint of "wasted" money): 1. John Danks (closer and closer to being gone) 2. Melky (still too early to fully write-off) On the counter, we have 2 to 3 of the better contracts in baseball (which helps to off-set) 1. Sale 2. Q 3. Abreu Note: I do not think Roberton's contract is a bad one (little upside to be a great one but if we wantd to trade him, someone would take him and that contract from us based upon his current production). Similarly, I don't think the LaRoche contract is a terrible one either. Hard for 2 year deal to set you back and LaRoche is notorious 2nd half player (and his OPS compared to historical norms through this part of the season is nothing to snide about). I also won't get worked up about contracts like Duke or others. If it is I won't discuss Ramirez / Shark as it has no impact going forward at this point.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 10:02 AM) To be fair though, the organization has not made much of an attempt to develop many hitters in the darft since 2010 here are the positions drafted in the first 5 rounds: 2015 - 3 Pitchers 2014 - 4 Pitchers - 1 Catcher (Austin) 2013 - 3 Pitchers - 1 SS (Anderson #1), 1 OF (May #13) 2012 - 2 Pitchers - 1 OF (Hawkins #8), 1 1B (Barnum #27), 1 2B (DeMichele), 1 SS Nick Basto 2011 - 4 Pitchers - 1 OF (Walker) 2010 - 5 Pitchers - 1 1B (Wilkins) So 21 pitchers and 9 position players drafted in that time span. Of the trades that have been made, the prospects that they have acquired have been: Samardzjia trade - 1 pitching prospect Gordon Beckham trade - 1 pitching prospect ADA trade - acquired 2 pitching prospects Adam Dunn trade - acquired 1 pitching prospect Jake Peavy trade - acquired 2 pitching prospects, 1 SS (Rondon #12) Jesse Crain trade - 1 pitching prospect, 1 3B prospect (Kline) Matt Thorntom trade - 1 OF prospect (Jacobs) Addison Reed trade - 1 3B prospect (Davidson #9) Jason Frasor trade - 2 pitching prospects Ozzie Guillen trade - 2 pitching prospects , 1 SS prospect (Martinez) Carlos Quentin trade - 2 pitching prospects Sergio Santos trade - 1 pitching prospect Scott Linebrink trade - 1 pitching prospect Thats 16 pitchers and 5 position players in trades in that time as well (not including ML ready players and spring training filler trades - true prospects) In all the Sox have added 37 pitchers to only 14 position players in the last five years in the top of draft or in trades. Of the 14 hitting prospects acquired - Kline, Wilkins, Jacobs, and Martinez are out of the org 6 of the remaining 10 are in the top 30 prospects. Yes guys like Walker and Barnum have been busts but they have made up for it by drafting guys like Michalzeski, Semien, and Johnson in the later rounds. Jake Peavy trade was Rondon, 2 pitching prospects, and the centerpiece (Garcia). So technically 2 position prospects and 2 pitching prospects. Very good trade. We also have made plenty of 1st round position selections (or 2nd round) with Walker / Trayce Thompson / Mitchell / Beck's / Barnum / Hawkins / Tim Anderson.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 18, 2015 -> 11:20 AM) Which is exactly the logic where I've followed to reach the point that I'm ready to trade one of our top 2 lefties. I am open to trading. I'd probably prefer to move Q then Sale but it does all depend on the package. I think Dodgers are team that could offer a package that made sense. Doesn't mean they will though. I suppose Rays / Priates could as well.