Marty34

It's going to take some deft GM'ing by KW and I keep going back and forth on what the best combination SP/RP would be. Right now, I'm thinking Liriano/Street and that's if they can get them w/o having to give up Viciedo. Probably not.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 04:24 PM) I can't believe I'm anxious to get Crainwreck back. I think this should stabilize the bullpen a bit. Nate Jones can go back to pitching the 6th and 7th innings now. The way Jones has pitched for the last month or so you have to wonder why he wasn't sent down instead of Martinez. I think it's because he's one of the guys they're looking to deal.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 02:13 PM) I agree with the first two, although they might be equally important depending on Danks. I admire your passion about platooning Viciedo, but you don't think that there might be other positions where you could argue the same point? DH, 2B, C... Absolutely there are other positions, but I don't think they can be upgraded as cheaply as LF. The problem is, the Sox have a couple of glaring holes on the pitching staff that need to be addressed and not a lot of assets to do it with.

QUOTE (MAX @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 02:02 PM) Yes it should, if you can still win while developing talent. I think the sox can with Dayan. The bullpen scares me much more than his performance. I respectfully disagree about development in August and September when the team is in a race. A starter, a reliever, and a platoon partner for LF, in that order.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 01:54 PM) Pretty much sums it up. I'm all for making the team better, but you're not going to see much of an improvement (if any) if you replace/platoon Juan Pierre for Viciedo. Realistically, if you want to improve LF and the hitter that occupies LF, you're not going to do that without giving up a lot more than you'd want to. Besides, as I've said before, you have to consider the development of Viciedo. Player development should never be a consideration in August and September when the team is in as close of a race as they are. In short, it's winning time and even a small upgrade in LF could win you a game and in a tight race that could be the difference.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 01:33 PM) Here is the ball, good luck It would probably push Coop over the edge to see an arm like Ankiel's day after day and not be allowed to fix it.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 01:43 PM) Why is there even a debate? Juan Pierre's wOBA is like 8 points higher than Viciedo's this year and this is the best Juan's hit since 2009. If Juan Pierre needs to hit .310 to be better than Viciedo hitting .250, then there shouldn't be a debate. Mostly because Pierre's not going to keep up the .310 pace (because he's just not that good of a hitter, especially at this point in his career) and Viciedo sure as hell isn't going to have a .323 wOBA all year long. Both don't walk, both make a lot of outs, both are below average in the outfield. But at least Viciedo gives you pop instead of the occasional double Pierre MIGHT provide you. Did I mention one of them is 23 and the other is in his mid-30s? Viciedo is a lefty masher. His numbers against righties suggest the Sox can improve if he has a platoon partner the last 2 months of the season. Get me a guy who gets on base v. righties.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 01:28 PM) Loogy? Kidding. Sort of. Why not? Just don't tell him in advance.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 11:36 AM) Give it a rest. No one wants to see this discussion anymore, its been beaten to death. You insist the couple stats you are citing say he's a good add, everyone else says your view is far too narrow. No movement will occur. I think everyone on the board would be happier if you just dropped it, and if everyone else did too. Fair enough. For the record, I don't understand why I'm being singled out in keeping this discussion going (for responding to posts) though. Especially when some of those posts included insults directed at me.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 11:31 AM) Here's an idea. Why don't we table all of the Viciedo versus Pierre stuff unless there is actually a rumor that involves them? I guess I can't reply to posts.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 11:31 AM) Over trading Viciedo, yes. Did you happen to catch the game last night? Guys like Hernandez and Castro and Molina just aren't ready, and we're doing them no favors getting them crushed out there in hostile environments. Jeremy Guthrie is no upgrade.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 11:23 AM) Its not being ignored, its being argued back, you just dont agree. You feel a 2 month platoon sample size of a declining player having a nice start is a better indicator than his entire career, and pretty much everyone else agrees that Viciedo is still feeling out his way as a power hitting run producer(that still has nice numbers) and would rather not part with Viciedo if Pierre is the end result. We get it you want to upgrade the rotation using Viciedo as the chip. But this board wants no part of Pierre, no matter how you spin his 2 month OBP It's being argued by "Pierre sucks" or by dismissing an 80-100 point difference in OBP as being meaningless.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 11:22 AM) Not at all. It's based on one ridiculous stat which is taken out of the full context of the last 3-4 years and is irrelevant because it's from a different league. You're advocating Jeremy Guthrie, correct?

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 10:48 AM) Except viciedo has scored the same amount of runs out of the 7 spot than Pierre has scored leading off. And their amount of at bats are similar despite Pierre platooning. Really, Pierre isn't happening no matter how much you argue with all of us, and it hasnt been proven why a declining player is so much more valuable than a young power hitter. Just leave it at you want viciedo as a trade chip, the Pierre talk is really not proving anything I think I argued the reason why Pierre likely would be an upgrade over Viciedo over the last 2 months successfully despite it being ignored or dismissed out of hand.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 11:00 AM) Then he'll argue that Howard and Utley have been out, so it's not fair. It's ridiculous to compare AL and NL stats anyway, especially when the trendline with Juan Pierre in both leagues and at this point in his career (as far as being an effective basestealer) is pretty obvious. Please don't make up my arguments.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 10:06 AM) The reason was because Youkilis was trending badly away from his normal stats and people thought he was done. He isnt. Pierre is way exceeding his normal stats, but will never provide the power and RBIs that Viciedo will provide. Whatever the reason, many posters on Soxtalk were wrong about Youkilis. RBI's really? By the same token Viciedo will not score the number of runs Pierre will. Pierre's arm is a problem, no doubt, but he can go from 1st to third or score from first on a double easier than Viciedo. Not to mention steal a base. His baserunning advantage over Viciedo makes up for his arm, probably more than makes up really. that'10 times every 100 AB's, yes I think that makes a difference when you are in a tight race. Not only that, but you'd have Viciedo available off the bench late in the game as a lefty masher. And if you pinch run for Dunn or Konerko and their spot in the order comes up again you have Viciedo available as a power threat. One of the things about getting another OBP guy in the lineup is it could allow for Youkillis to move to 3 spot which means you won't have to take your 3 hitter out for a pinch-runner.

QUOTE (Cerbaho-WG @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 10:02 AM) No. Also, you're nuts. Do Viciedo's outs count less because he IS ONLY 23!!!!

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 09:45 AM) Seeing Pierre's name in a few posts here-- just to clarify, his name wasn't actually brought up based on anything real, right? As was pointed on yesterday many posters on here didn't want Youkilis. Being contrary to Soxtalk opinion probably means you're right.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 19, 2012 -> 09:38 AM) And (here's the key point) he's not likely to maintain his pace. Especially considering he'd be platooned and only be playing 50%-60% of the time. Besides, you'd be sacrificing a TON of power. Replacing Viciedo with even a .350 obp, improves this team.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 10:13 PM) Ryan Sweeney would be a fun return, slot him in the 9th hole, provides decent defense in LF and won't kill you at the plate. Will Venable Chris Denofria Franklin Gutierrez (if healthy) Laynce Nix Corey Hart (pricier) Cuddyer (if you can get him cheap) That's just a list I came up with in ten minutes. None of those guys comes as cheaply as Pierre. When you fix the rotation and bullpen before addressing LF that's the biggest consideration

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 08:45 PM) And no one would bet against you, but I'd wager that Viciedo's OPS against RHP will be higher than Pierre's in August and September. Is there a reason you continue focusing on OBP and completely ignore slugging? I think it's more important to keep turning that lineup over, getting guys on base for the middle of the order, than it is to sacrifice that for the occasional HR. A benefit of that is you have Viciedo on the bench to pinch hit late in the game against a lefty. PH for Beckham, De Aza, or (for instance) Pierre.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 08:45 PM) Marty, I agree that we shouldn't view Viciedo as untouchable, as I think we can get a top starter who has more than .5 a season left on their contract for him, but replacing Viciedo with Pierre is puke worthy. Pierre gives you a decent BA, and that's it, his defense isn't even good in LF anymore. We could do a lot better for not much more money or talent, please stop bringing up Pierre because no one here will agree with you then. By all means then they should do it. Do you have examples in mind?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 08:13 PM) I think it appears that way because when you take the extreme minority opinion, you have many more people to answer to. I admire Marty for having the courage to do so. Not many here do. Appreciate the comment Jamshack. Here is my quick two points on Viciedo. 1.) Can't waste this opportunity, get the best starting pitcher available. Unfortunately you can't trade Jordan Danks to accomplish that. 2.) Viciedo struggles against right-handers. What's wrong with getting a cheap insurance policy like Pierre? I'll wager his OBP will be higher than Viciedo's against righties in August and September.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 07:51 PM) Marty is to DV, as Cowley is to Ozzie - completely incapable of discussing ANYthing else. Keep derailing threads, Marty. I can't reply?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 18, 2012 -> 07:02 PM) No, small sample sizes are way more reliable than what a guy has done over his entire career. I thought you didn't want Viciedo platooning.