Marty34

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 05:19 PM) Yeah, I didn't understand that statement either. A young guy under control for several more years that can hit 40 HRs a year...and that doesn't get you anything? The Sox are in first place with that guy in left field. Sure, he struggles against righties, but he needs this year to develop. I am not in favor of banching the guy 50% of the time so we can have JUAN PIERRE take his place. You'd put developing a good, not great LF'er over winning in August and September? I could not disagree with your approach more.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 05:09 PM) Four more very inexpensive years of an absolute stud, and a foundation for sustained excellence. BTW, we HAVE a chance to win this year. Of course another stud pitcher would increase that chance, but would guarantee nothing. Greinke does not guarantee a championship, by the same token Viciedo isn't guaranteed to hit 40 homers next year either. LF'ers are found anyway. If the Sox end up keeping Mitchell and slot him in center with De Aza moving to left over the next 2-3 years how much worse are they really than they would be if they kept Viciedo.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 04:45 PM) Nobody's system is overflowing with guys like this. He may be a 40 HR guy as soon as next season. He has uncommon power, and an approach that allows for adjustment - he's not dumb. Mark Trumbo's 2011 stats (1st full season at age 25) look remarkably similar to DV's this year. How's that working out now? Much like our guy: power, uncommon. This idea that what a guy IS is all he'll ever be seems to go hand-in-hand with the general impatience of an internet community. Improvement is almost never as quick as we want it to be. Say he hits 40 home runs next year what does that get you? He is not a prospect that put in front of a chance to win this year.

QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 04:17 PM) Who is worse? And almost every org is producing depth players, and almost every org has the same amount, if not more, of high ceiling star potential players. Just because a team calls up 7 pen arms doesn't mean you have a good system. Let me know when the White Sox develop an impact bat, let alone have one in their system. Bingo. The Sox may utilize their farm system better than any other team, but in terms of projected position players or starting pitching in the next 2-3 years there's not much there.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 03:48 PM) Marty34 coming into 2013 when the Sox don't make the playoffs...because their offense goes into the "Tanks" when Juan Pierre puts up a .597 OPS replacing Viciedo. "KW should be fired for giving up Viciedo, Mitchell and Jones for Greinke. We didn't re-sign him and now this team's at least 3-4 years from being able to compete again. We won't ever draw 2,000,000 fans again, and customers at Applebee's in Lawrence will forget Ozzie or the White Sox even existed by 2015." It's you who is notorious for this kind of flip-flop.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 03:20 PM) http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/danny-kn...arting-pitchers The White Sox, as CBSSports.com colleague Jon Heyman wrote today, have prioritized starting pitching in trade talks this week, with Zack Greinke the top target. MLB Sports Report ‏@MLBSportsReport #WhiteSox are expected to make a big offer for Zack Greinke, source says. Looks like Greinke is KW #1 choice. KW is absolutely doing the right thing here. Greinke is a difference maker.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 02:06 PM) When the guy with the .385 OBP also has a 50 point lower OPS and makes a ton of useless outs on the bases? Yes I do. That's not even to mention that Viciedo is a developing player, with Pierre is a fading player. Or the fact that Viciedo is already a better LF than Pierre is. Or the fact that Viciedo is FREE because the team already has him. Or the fact that Viciedo's potential is so much higher. 2012: Viciedo's OPS v. RH .689 Pierre's OPS v RH .814

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 01:59 PM) I respectfully disagree. I would much rather have a MUCH younger Viciedo who is developing into a solid power hitter and run producer over Pierre who is much older and is a shell of what he used to be. Viciedo provides this team with extra power. Pierre would provide this team with basehits and a bit of speed- and since we already have that in De Aza, its not necessary. It's a game of outs, and Viciedo makes too many of them against RH'ers.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 01:59 PM) Not in this case, especially when you consider the "upgrade" is Juan Pierre. And you should be concerned about development. It's not just about this year. You have to consider 2013 and beyond. Viciedo is going to be a big part of that. I don't see that allowing Viciedo to play is making the Sox worse. I could see, however, that Pierre roaming left field could. You have a problem with a .385 obp replacing a .278 obp?

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 01:55 PM) So you're willing to give up the production and the arm in LF for a best one more time on base per 10 ABs? Your ideas are Pierre and Zambrano and you have a problem with KW? I understand if it's difficult for you to comprehend.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 01:42 PM) Well, this thread has morphed into another discussion (which happens often, and that's okay). But the disturbing part is that the discussion is about bringing back Pierre. Really? And the reasoning is that Pierre has a higher OBP against right handers. Okay, so let's platoon every position. Dunn sits against lefties, Rios sits against righties, Beckham sits against... Viciedo's power and ability to change a game with one swing makes up for the difference in BA and OBP. Besides, this is his first full year in the majors, and we've already seen two people on the board bound and determined to trade and/or sit him. As far as I'm concerned, Viciedo is doing fine. His patience is getting better, his defense has been surprisingly decent, and he's got a ton of power. Let the guy develop for god's sake. I don't care if it's his first year or fifth year. I also could not care less about his development the rest of this year. A 100+ difference in obp that could be had cheaply is an upgrade worth considering.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 01:40 PM) I love the irony in you using something like that and assuming he's going to maintain that playing every day the rest of the year. Not to mention that you are advocating sitting Viciedo in favor of Pierre, period. That alone is LOL-worthy Didn't say play him every day. I guess you're ok with the .278 obp against righties and that .411 slg. Why get a guy who gets on base when you have all that?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 01:30 PM) And he's shown signs recently of... 1) Taking more walks 2) Cutting down his swing a bit and showing a willingness to take the ball to RF....the triple and then he served one into RF yesterday, ala Paulie. And he's had two game changing 3 run homers, against the Yankees and Royals, that led directly to our winning those two games. Every one of his hits gets celebrated like someone on here won the lotto.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 01:27 PM) Marty the power makes up for that though. Pierre's are empty outs. Neither player walks. Viciedo's power makes him much more valuable. Viciedo is going to hit 25-30 homers in his rookie season as the 5th-6th offensive option as a 23 year old. I wish Viciedo was more selective but comparing the two is wrong. I don't think the power makes up for the 100+ point difference in obp between the two v. rh'ers. a top 5 of DeAza, Pierre, Youk, Dunn, and Konerko is some serious on base potential.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 01:17 PM) Juan Pierre makes a ton of outs. Not nearly as many as Viciedo.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 01:04 PM) This is the dumbest idea I've heard. Pierre as a 2 hitter. Your what hurts? In the American League? Those numbers that he's putting up won't translate at all for the Sox. Two, we need power at home in July/Aug/September. We already have a 1 hole hitter. Why do we need any insurance for Viciedo? I'm more concerned with needing insurance for DeAza at this point if he wears down in the 2nd half. Viciedo makes too many outs against RH'ers. If he continues to do so, Pierre's .385 obp is an excellent way to upgrade a weakness cheaply.

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jul 15, 2012 -> 11:11 PM) I do have some inside info about what is happening. As far as Sox players going to be traded that is speculation on my part. I know KW really wants another quality pitcher for the rotation and a bullpen arm. Also don't be surprised if we get a utily player in a trade. KW wants an experience hitter coming off the bench. I think they should consider bringing Pierre back. His .385 OBP v. righties would provide nice insurance for Viciedo and he'd come cheap. Deaza Pierre Youk Dunn Konerko Rios AJ Ramirez Beckham

QUOTE (SOXOBAMA @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 12:05 PM) Cubs don't need Mitchell. They will have Jackson, Soler and their #1 draft choice coming up in the next few years. Exactly.

No team pursuing Dempster would be scared off by a package of Axelrod, Mitchell, + A-level boom/bust pitcher.

QUOTE (balfanman @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 11:30 AM) I guess maybe that's what I'm getting at. Does playing so deep help him cover the gaps better and if so, is that worth all of the balls that DeAza lets fall in front of him? From listening to Derrin Jackson, he seems to be of the opinion that DeAza should move in at least 3 - 4 steps. He should still be able to cover the gaps and go back on balls just as effectively, while taking away some of the bloops that fall in front of him. He plays really deep, noticably deep. DJ may be being kind by saying 3 or 4 steps. He plays that deep because he's really a corner OF'er. It's a sign he lacks confidence in CF. I'd put CF as the 2nd biggest defensive weak link on the team behind only C.

QUOTE (balfanman @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 11:02 AM) Just wanted to get some opinions on DeAza as a defensive centerfielder. Personally, I think that he has been okay overall, nothing special. I am one who listens to most every game on radio and Derrin Jackson, who was a pretty good defensive outfielder himself, has made the comment that DeAza plays way to deep because he is afraid that he can't go back to catch a ball very well. From listening, this has cost the Sox a few runs this season, including Fridays 14 inning marathon. I believe it was the 8th inning of that game, when the Royals tied it. Jackson claimed that DeAza should of easily caught the ball that led to the tying run, but he was playing way to deep and it dropped in front of him. In that case, the game should of been over after 9, saving 5 innings of wear and tear on our bullpen. What say ye? He's improved in that he covers the gaps well, but far too many balls drop in front of him.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 09:52 AM) Marty, if you read my post, I pointed our Axelrod as a "placeholder". The prospects are the meat of the trade, Axelrod is just there to hold down a rotation spot and eat innings on a last place team. And as SS2K5 pointed out, Dempster gets the Cubs nothing at the end of the season. So how much does 2.5 months of Dempster cost? Not a whole lot, and I doubt many teams will be willing to part with any truly elite pitching talent in return. That would make no sense. You wrote that maybe Axelrod and Mitchell could get you Dempster. I strongly disagree with that. I'm sure there is a team that views Dempster as the difference between winning a division or not and that is what will push his price higher than Axelrod and Mitchell.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 09:20 AM) Like I said earlier, I think because of the new compensation rules, prices might be a little lower than they have in the past. Sure, but Axelrod has zero value.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 08:46 AM) That would be overpaying, and I don't think it will take that much to get him. We're talking about 2.5 months of a pitcher, even if he is a really, really good one right now. I'll stick with what I've been saying all along - he can probably be had for a placeholder in the rotation (i.e. Axelrod), a close-to-ready prospect not named Castro (Perdro Hernandez comes to mind), and possibly some boom/bust or lower level guy. Any team looking for a starter can easily beat a Axelrod/Mitchell package. I'd think Castro or Rienzo have to go as part of a package to get a pitcher of quality.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 15, 2012 -> 09:05 PM) Are you sure you'd get 10 starts out of Zambrano? Anything is a plus when the alternative is 10 starts for Axelrod.