Marty34

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 04:29 PM) The point was pretty clearly that you can't trade away all your young potential stars for the EJax's of the world if you want to remain competitive on an extended basis. Trading Viciedo would be such a move. Nobody is saying, or has ever said, that Viciedo would be a draw on his own. But it has been repeatedly shown that winning is the only draw the Sox could ever depend on and Viciedo can be a significant part of winning in the future. I think you're being purposely obtuse to further an argument you presented months ago just out of stubbornness. You manage to wedge Viciedo into as many crevices as you can, even if the argument doesn't fit. EDIT: I'm also fairly sure nobody has ever said they would NEVER trade Viciedo under any circumstances. I'm sure we would all trade him for Grienke if we could be assured a contract extension. However, we want an eye to the future and you apparently want to dump him for Rob Mackowiak. ' Viciedo will not be the difference between being competitive and not. As far as wedging him into arguments goes, I guess you're talking about Pierre. I find it odd that some posters are putting "developing" Viciedo in the next two months by playing him against RH'ers instead ahead of improving the lineup by platooning him thus having a better chance to you know ... win games.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 12:19 PM) Historically, you can't sell off everyone in hopes of winning this year, and expect the fans to show up in years from now when there is nothing on the farm. They won't. they will clear off of the bandwagon quickly. Viciedo alone isn't going to bring people to the park.

This one: QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 07:52 AM) But as we have seen, the effect from those flags flying does not last forever. Sox attendance levels this year are lower than any year since 2002. Winning now puts more butts in the seats, but you8 do have to think of the team being competitive in the future do, because as we saw, the bandwagon will empty. What is your point?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 11:06 AM) Yeah, because Ramirez hitting .400 over the last how many games and driving in more runs than an All-Star 1B at the SS position... Clearly, a nobody. http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting/_/pos.../OPS/order/true Gordon Beckham is 17th out of 21 qualifying 2B in the majors. Shouldn't you be advocating a trade of him, when he's clearly BELOW AVERAGE offensively? Whereas VICIEDO is ABOVE AVERAGE AT HIS POSITION AT AGE 23. How old is Gordon Beckham again? You must have very little idea how the trade market works. Normally, you have to give something of value to get something of value in return.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 11:26 AM) To thoroughly dismiss the idea that because something is worth more money, it means it has more cash flow. That wasn't your original post.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 11:18 AM) I wonder if Hawk is saying yes or no to KW in regards to going after Greinke I wonder what LaRussa is telling Chairman Reinsdorf.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:31 AM) Again. What changed in the Dodgers revenue that made them go from a team worth $1.4b (was the 2012 Forbes number,) to $2.15 billion in a span of a couple of months? In 2011 they were valued at $800 million. Did their total revenue about triple from 2011 to spring 2012? The funny part... their revenues dropped from 2011 to 2012. Valuation is subjective. Cash flow is not. What is your point as regards the White Sox and their ability to pursue a trade that would better their chances at a World Series this year?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 11:00 AM) Young, cost-controlled position players are worth a lot more to a team than a starting pitcher rental for 40% of the season. So you'd be against any trade.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 11:00 AM) And they don't have an opportunity now? The Cardinals in 2006 and 2011 would disagree. So 10-11 starts out of Greinke, that doesn't even mean we'll go 10-1. Look at Jake Peavy's results vs. offensive performances in those games. Let's say he somehow goes 8-3 (or the team's record is that), who's to say Danks couldn't do the same thing? Young, cost-controlled position players are worth a lot more to a team than a starting pitcher rental for 40% of the season. I think you mentioned it was easy to find a LF who would put up a 727 OPS, which is the big league average for that position. So who is this player who's so easily obtainable right now or available as a FA? Oh, that's right. Juan Pierre. Surely that combo of DeAza and Pierre at the top of the line-up is going to guarantee us 2-3 World Series championships. To hear you talk not only is Viciedo going to hit 35-40 homers in the near future, he's going to save the Sox from bankruptcy.

QUOTE (mmmmmbeeer @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 09:02 AM) I thought he actually looked a bit better last night. He looked more confident taking pitches as if he was seeing the ball a bit better and he put a couple great swings on the ball. He's coming around. I agree with him looking better last night. I'd still like to see Rios (maybe Youkilis) moved to the 3 spot and Dunn and Konerko dropped. If for no other reason because Rios and Youkilis aren't going to be removed late in the game for a pinch-runner.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:15 AM) Wrong question. The better question is, how long will Pierre's numbers hold up at his age and based on his career? For 2 months, I'd take that chance. People were complaining nobody's getting on for Youkilis in the gamethread last night. Well those nobodies are Viciedo, Ramirez, Beckham, and De Aza. What's wrong with trying to solve that?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:22 AM) Because the Rangers went from bankruptcy to a cash machine in less than 3 years (50% because of the new t.v. contract, 50% because of 2 consecutive World Series appearances)...the White Sox should now trade for Greinke, sign Josh Hamilton in the offseason as well as retain the services of Peavy and Youkilis. Why not? It's not Marty's money. You love to curry favor even when you have to make stuff up to do it.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:10 AM) Did the revenues of the Dodgers just double or triple in a day this year? Their TV contract is up after this season if I'm not mistaken. So you think the opportunity to win a World Series is not worth giving up Viciiedo from a financial standpoint?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 10:08 AM) So do Robin Ventura and Frank Thomas. Maybe we should bring them out of retirement? Because Pierre's basically at that point. Pierre played last night. He is not retired. How long will it be before Viciedo has an .814 OPS v. right-handers?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 09:58 AM) Team Valuation has nothing to do with what a team can spend. Nothing at all. It is a completely meaningless point in the terms of this conversation that detracts from the rest of the discussion. Sure it does. Revenues are factured into team valuation.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 09:52 AM) Exactly. What is your point?

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 09:27 AM) This is suppose to be a joke right? Why would that be a joke? Pierre hits right-handers better than Viciedo.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 09:41 AM) Valuation has nothing to do with available cash. I don't understand this. Is your point that Chairman Reinsdorf is undercapitalized?

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 09:26 AM) Seriously? Here's a hint - he made a very successful one THIS SEASON already. You do admit KW's recent trade history, he hasn't been stealing people blind.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 09:36 AM) As inaccurate post as there is. The trade where that 3rd baseman was acquired for essentially nothing? That was pretty good. You're right.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 07:52 AM) But as we have seen, the effect from those flags flying does not last forever. Sox attendance levels this year are lower than any year since 2002. Winning now puts more butts in the seats, but you8 do have to think of the team being competitive in the future do, because as we saw, the bandwagon will empty. Beginning of '05 the team was valued by Forbes at $262M, after a World Series and a year in which they contended for a division title, in 2007 they were valued at $381M. A 45% increase in team value. Aside from a new park, nothing turbocharges a team's value like a World Series title.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 17, 2012 -> 07:55 AM) That would be a classic Kenny Williams "buy low" trade. If I were the Yankees I would be afraid. Why? He hasn't made a clear winning trade since getting Quentin.

QUOTE (bigruss22 @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 10:46 PM) Agreed, I have no issue trading Tank because I just don't think he'll ever truly become a complete offensive force with a high OBP to go with his power, but Im not trading him for a rental. I'd need a good, cost-controlled starter for 2.5 years, for a great starter with 1.5 years (that we could resign later). What if a deep playoff run allows you to bump the payroll up from $90M to $110M or more?

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 10:34 PM) To me, that seems like a ton for a rental with a lot of red flags right now. Brewers just had a terrible loss though, so they're one game closer to having to decide what to do. Come on now Fathom, you don't want to pay a guy and you don't want a rental. Relying on Humber and Danks is the riskiest of all moves, imo.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 16, 2012 -> 10:26 PM) So who would you give up for Greinke? If you say Viciedo, then I ask you why would the Brewers want him? start with Viciedo and Castro. Since these team's are shying away I'd expect the offers aren't pouring in. The Brewers need a hitter at first base, no?