Marty34

I'd like to see them let Contreras, Dye, Thome, and Jenks all walk next year. 2010 is time to start reshaping this group.

4 games is too much ground to make up with the schedule they have the way I see it. Dye, Jenks, Contreras, and Dotel need to go on the block ASAP while there are maximum teams still in it. And in the case of Contreras at least, while he is pitching well.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jul 12, 2009 -> 11:54 AM) I fully expect Dayan to get in better shape this off-season and have a really solid year next year. He should start in AA and I think he will have a solid year of maybe: .280-.290, 15-20 HRs and 80 RBIs. Improve the walk rate and lower the K rate, play better D, as well. Even if he accomplishes that, I'm not sure he'd be an elite prospect or even worth the $10M paid.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 12, 2009 -> 01:37 PM) Yep, 3.5 back at the ASB with Quentin supposed to join the team next week. 4 in the loss column with a brutal schedule after the break is too much to overcome I think. Kenny should be in sell mode.

QUOTE (scenario @ Jul 12, 2009 -> 10:22 AM) A 20-year old in AA playing his first year of professional baseball has a clock ticking on him? I don't think so. They had to have expected more for the $10M they gave him. The idea that he's out of shape and a neutral observer like Goldstein labeled him very disappointing is troubling to say the least.

Surprised Goldstein's assessment of Viciedo so far hasn't generated much response. He has shown a swing at anything approach with little power and is out of shape. I think it's too soon to label him a bust, but that clock has started to tick.

The economy is hurting the Sox. I'm perfectly fine with them not adding payroll if they feel they can't. In these terrible economic times better to be safe than sorry.

first base prospects who don't mash from beginning to end are absolutely expendable. LOVE Pena's arm. With the bullpen showing some shakiness, good proactive move by KW.

QUOTE (lostfan @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 06:41 PM) I've never gotten the impression that Kenny gives a s*** about trade value for his own players, if he did, he would've tried to unload Swisher later. Swisher was a move driven by economics, IMO. And the right move I might add.

I think Richard is still in the rotation to build his trade value just as I think Poreda is being kept out of the rotation to keep his trade value.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 05:11 PM) They are supposedly really interested in Escobar from the Braves. Would like to see Escobar at SS, Ramirez at 2B and Beckham at 3B to finish out this season...we might have to take Francouer's contract and his 600+ OPS to get it done, but that would be a much more talented infield and far better defensively than what we have now up the middle as a DP combination. Where did you see this?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 5, 2009 -> 05:04 PM) You do realize the Yankees aren't even in first place right now? They're in the wild card slot right now. They are, as you admit, in the playoffs as of today. Your point I guess is the Yankees are not to be worried about. I think you're wrong.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jul 4, 2009 -> 07:19 PM) Honestly i would offer the same package + some for Haren before anyone else first. Even if it takes Flowers, Poreda, Richard and even Getz + more- you do it. As far as Doc Holiday goes, if we were that one piece away from winning it next year, that is the time i'd make that deal. This year is doesn't make much sense, unless they are looking into filling the rest of the puzzle this winter- making 2010 the one year to make a run at it. I would much rather have a run at it for 3+ years with Haren in our rotation. Haren is going to be next to impossible to get because of his favorable contract. As far as Halliday goes, I think with a healthy Quentin and a top 3-4 of Halladay, Buehrle, Danks, and Floyd they could absolutely give the Yankees a run for their money in the playoffs. If you don't think they could, might as well be sellers because outside of Halladay (and Haran) their isn't a player that puts the Sox on the Yankees level come postseason. You could also deal Halliday after the season to recoup some of the young talent you traded to get him.

I'd think Flowers would have to be in any deal for Halladay.

Per Will Carrol (not the most reliable source) Kenny's on the prowl trying to strike a quick deal. He mentioned the Giants are trying to do the same, but says they aren't necessarily talking to one another. I'm thinking it's a top-of-the-rotation starter he's after again. Interesting that Toronto keeps fading . . . Halladay perhaps?

13 out of 19 and/or at least within 2 games by the break. Anything less and it will be difficult because the schedule will get very tough end of July and August.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 07:41 PM) How about we give him time? Fields was atrocious at 3B back in 06 and 07, but he developed into mediocre (which still isn't good, but I'd take mediocre D from 3B if you could provide an impact at bat). Also, Fields is what, 27? That's 7 years older than Viciedo. I'm not saying to act like he will stay there, but at the same time, you don't have to act like it's a for gone conclusion that he will have to move. I personally don't know, I have only seen him a couple times. However, considering he's been said to be athletic enough to play the corner OF and has a very strong arm (threw in the 90's when he pitched in Cuba, IIRC), I say there's still reason to believe that he can still develop defensively. To tell you the truth, I don't care about his glove. I'm more concerned about his bat. He's definitely made strides, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't expect more offensively from him at this point for the $10.5M paid. I understand his youth and adjusting to an entirely different way of life have to be factored in.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 06:50 PM) So what is enough? A few games in ST? How much have you seen him recently in Birmingham? And what does he do that is so wrong he'll never be able to fix, or what does he do wrong that he can't improve on over the next two years? I don't like him defensively at third. He certainly should not preclude the Sox from getting a third base prospect should one become available because it will be his bat that will determine if he'll play.

QUOTE (BearSox @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 05:31 PM) I'm sorry Marty, but you gotta stop with all this godly wisdom of yours. If you don't think Viciedo will stick at 3B, fine. But unless you've seen him play a lot, don't act like you know for a fact he's gonna have to move. But it's ok to act like he's going to stay at third? I don't understand. I've seen him play enough that to me he hasn't changed any of the concerns scouts had when he signed - that he isn't a good defensive third baseman. Again, Josh Fields is way ahead of him defensively and there aren't a lot of people that are happy with his defensive prowess.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 04:13 PM) How much have you seen Viciedo play though? I've read that he's making strides. The Sox moved Beckham to 3B in Charlotte to keep Viciedo at 3B when it was clear Gordon could have went straight to Chicago from Birmingham. They also have kept Retherford at 2B to have Viciedo at 3B. I think they would have moved him by now if they gave up on him as a 3B. I agree Richard could be a 4 and maybe even a 3 in the NL but I don't think he has enough value to get us a significantly better player. As part of a package for a significantly better player, yes I would move him. But he's been fine as a short starter and I still think he can be a very good lefty setup man should he return to the pen in the future. He wouldn't be a guy I'd move just to move. I disagree on Jenks declining. I've seen his good CB this year and I've seen his velocity up as well. He's a pitcher and he doesn't need to throw 95+ anymore to get outs. He's absolutely fine pitching in the low-mid 90's as long as he locates. There will be a lot of starters available. Texas is in it, but they could still move Padilla and Millwood. Apart from Peavy and Bedard, you have Washburn, Davis, Garland, Francis, Cook, maybe Cliff Lee in late July plus some of Cleveland's surplus of back-end starters, Pavano, Bartolo from us, maybe some Pirates pitchers even, Penny and Smoltz, Guthrie, maybe Sonnanstine hits the market (though who would want him aside from a few posters here who actually think he's good), on and on. A lot of these guys are much better bets than Contreras. Because of this economy, even though there aren't a whole lot of names out there right this moment, watch for the market to start flooding by the second week in July. You'll have a lot of teams making the decision that they aren't contenders but only a few teams looking to add SP who can also add payroll, and that is going to make for the ultimate buyer's market if you can take on payroll. Count will be one of the last pitchers on the list, and we're not moving him without taking on salary or eating salary. Just think for a second about Wilson Betemit, who hasn't had a whole lot of AB this year so far. He's an accomplished bat off the bench, and even at $1M or whatever small amount he is making, nobody claimed him. Teams do not even want to go $1-2M on a bench bat anymore. Two years ago Betemit is most definitely claimed and acquired for nothing. Even Uribe at $4.5M last year was claimed, and he was nothing but a defensive backup with some pop in a pinch hit situation. Things have changed and we're not going to be able to unload Count, especially not with all the other names that will be out there, unless we pick up a ton. I think it is very possible that in this market you may see some surprises. Like I said above, I think the market will start to flood with mostly mediocrity midway through July, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a team like the Royals throw Gil Meche out there to see what offers are out there. Not necessarily saying he'll be traded, but I could see a situation where contenders capable of assuming salary wait around a little while to see what hits the market when it's all said and done. I don't expect to see a whole lot of activity this year at all, but I expect a s*** ton of rumors. I don't know why they haven't moved him yet, maybe they wanted him to concentrate on his hitting without having to worry about a position change first year in pro ball, but I just don't see Viciedo ever being a big league third baseman. The Brewers will be in a code red situation if they don't shore up their pitching in a hurry. They went to scout Pedro Martinez in the DR and he didn't even throw for them. They wouldn't have time to wait on him 4-6 weeks to get ready anyway. Besides that, they need multiple pitchers if they are going to stay in the race in the NL Central. Contreras and Richard might be the second and third best starters on their staff. If I were KW I'd offer those 2 + Jenks, pay Contreras' salary and see what they'd be willing to part with.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 02:04 PM) I imagine the Sox would have moved Viciedo to an OF corner by now if they felt that was his future, especially with Dye probably hitting FA after this season. It might just be an admission that they don't have a third baseman they are comftorable with for the next five years. Viciedo will have to improve a lot just to be as good defensively as Fields, IMO. So If they weren't happy with Fields defense . . . Earliest I see Viciedo on the team is 9/2010. He's going to have to show a good deal of development over the next 15 months to make that date. Richard has upped his stock since the Peavy debacle. If you're in the NL and squint you can see a reliable 4th starter, perhaps a 3.5 or 3 with a break or two. You also see cheap guy under control for a bit. That adds to his value. I think Jenks is definitely a player in decline. When he has a couple days off his velocity is mid-nineties, when he's used more often it's low nineties. Not too mention his devastating curve has all but disappeared. Valid point. Since they were willing to take on Money in the Peavy trade, I hope they'd do the same in trading off guys to get the best possible prospects in return. That's not how they conduct business though. As far as Contreras' value, with Peavy and Bedard off the market, there don't appear to be many starters available. This can only help his value.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 02:01 PM) The issue with Jenks is that of all the contenders, very few actually need a closer. The Phillies are w/o Lidge, but I can't see them making a huge deal with Lidge returning soon. The Brewers bullpen is ok with Hoffman back there. Street and Valverde on the market too will lessen Jenks value. KW likes to strike early, I think now is the time to get into discussions.

I will be very disappointed in Sox management if Jenks is on this team August 1st. I don't expect him to be.

QUOTE (OilCan @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 01:16 PM) If/When he goes to AAA this year, then he's still right on schedule. Personally, even if he reaches the ML @ 27, that's still OK. Right on schedule for what? A lefty masher 200 AB guy perhaps, but not a viable replacement for Dye on a championship caliber team.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 20, 2009 -> 01:12 PM) Why would we want Gamel? If Fields and Viciedo can't play 3rd, it's likely Beckham will play there. 1.) If Fields was in their plans at 3B, Beckham would not be playing there. 2.) Gamel is a left-handed middle-of-the-order bat. Something the Sox definitely could use. 3.) Viciedo is a corner OF'er (i.e. Carlos Lee) 4.) Sell high on Contreras and Jenks and too a lesser degree a guy like Richard. These guys are either not on the next championship Sox team or not vital to it. Basically, get the best player you can for these guys.