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QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 07:44 PM) Yes, I understand your silly analogy. Ironically, we "got here" by following your own strategy of "spend as much as needed on free agents, so there aren't any holes in the lineup." That strategy isn't sustainable. When over-priced dinosaurs like Thome and Dye decline to the point of uselessness, there's going to be a transition period. I thought that would be obvious to you, but apparently not. And that transition has been softened by the acquisitions of Rios and Pierre (the latter of which is probably an overall performance improvement over Dye at this point in their respective careers). But apparently that and Jake Freaking Peavy aren't enough for you. Gimme, gimme, gimme! And, yeah, no kidding that the farm system hasn't produced a lineup of Gordon Beckhams over the past five years. Instead, the organization has spent more than they've wanted to and have put guys like Thome, Swisher, and Rios into the lineup to offset that. Yeah, it sucks that the Sox were only able to home-grow a few outstanding pitchers and not an entire 25-man roster of All-Stars. But that's reality. And for some reason, you insist on incessantly whining about how the team got here when that ship sailed years ago and there isn't a thing that anybody can do about it right now. Freaking get over it. You sound like a 10-year-old who is still complaining about not seeing a Wii under the Christmas tree back in December. KW rarely goes after FAs. He built this team largely through trades. As far as I can tell, you're stance on the team is just sit down and shut up. Is that correct?

QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 06:08 AM) You really shouldn't be counting minor league guys, because we know they won't spend much time on the 25-man roster. So taking your list and making some adjustments based on how Ozzie is most likely to utilize his roster, our team's versatility looks like this: C: A.J., Castro. 1B: Konerko, Kotsay. 2B: Beckham, Nix, Vizquel. SS: Alexei, Vizquel, Nix. 3B: Teahen, Vizquel, Nix RF: Quentin, Rios, Kotsay, Jones. CF: Rios, Jones, Pierre. LF: Pierre, Jones, Kotsay *notes* I doubt Ozzie would ever plan on using Alexei and Teahen in the outfield, so lets strike those guys out of those positions. Also, lets just assume that Beckham, Alexei, and Teahen will be pencilled in at 2nd, SS, and 3B respectively in every game possible, because Ozzie usually prefers to have his starters stay at their everyday positions and have someone from the bench substitute for an injured player. This is why we never saw Quentin play anywhere else on the field except for LF, and why Ozzie rarely moved around Alexei and Beckham during the course of the season. It's only rare cases where Ozzie has players play out of position, such as when Dye played shortstop a few seasons ago, so we shouldn't really be considering starters' other positions as a method of verstatility. This is why it'd be good to have a DH type who can play in the field and sub for a player each day of the week instead of having a worthless DH-only player like Thome. Do you really think Thome is worthless? You do know he was the Sox best hitter last year, right?

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 05:35 AM) I'm just saying, the perception of the worn-out veteran getting another chance appears to be much different for pitchers than it is for hitters. Maybe that's Greg Maddux's fault. But yeah, I guess there was some backlash against the pitching staff. The whole CR/AP thing. I had forgotten about the CR/AP thing, but yeah, pretty much that. I think the reason hitters and pitchers have a different reception is simply exposure. An old pitcher getting a second chance is only seen every five days. You see a hitter almost every day.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 05:28 AM) I agree with that. For some reason, people were significantly more accepting of bartolo colon and co. at the end of the rotation last year than they are of jones/kotsay this year. Talk about holes...40% of our rotation was holes last year. I really really don't think that was the case. But let's pretend it was. When you have an excellent 1-3, and some strong potential with Richard, you can get by with trying out Contreras/Garcia/Colon in the 5 spot. However, when you have a mediocre at best lineup, you can't settle for well below average at a position that exists solely to produce offensively. Edit: besides, going into the season with those holes in the rotation certainly hurt the Sox, didn't it? Why would we want to try it with the offense?

QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 04:04 AM) He does if he versatile enough to rotate to defensive positions and give players rest on some days. We don't need versatility at this point. There is plenty of that. I posted this a few pages back but I guess it needs to be repeated... C: A.J., Castro, Flowers, and they're even having Retherford take reps at C. 1B: Konerko, Kotsay, Flowers - really anybody. 2B: Beckham, Teahen, Alexei, Nix, Vizquel, Retherford, Lillibridge, SS: Alexei, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Lillibridge, 3B: Teahen, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Retherford, Lillibridge RF: Quentin, Rios, Kotsay, Jones, Teahen CF: Rios, Jones, Pierre, Alexei LF: Pierre, Quentin, Jones, Kotsay We don't need more versatility. We need someone who will give the Sox strong offensive production. Jones/Kotsay will not do that. A rotation would be fine if it was the result of too much talent in a crowded lineup, something like 4 really good OFers. That's not the case here.

The DH is for offensive only players. That's the whole point. A dh has no defensive value.

QUOTE (longshot7 @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 01:15 AM) When Dye left, there was a hole in the outfield. Now there is not. You may not like the move, but it's not a hole. Use a different word then. Having a player to fill a position (quality aside) is not a hole. A hole is just that, a hole. Using the word "hole" in reference to a below average player in a lineup is extremely common. I'm not really sure why you're taking issue with this. Are you really going to be so literal that as long as there is a name on the depth chart, it is not considered a hole?

QUOTE (longshot7 @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 02:02 AM) No, we don't. Pierre is playing LF and Rios in CF. You might not like them, but they're playing those positions. By definition, that is not a hole. A below average player is considered a hole, you're just being pedantic. edit: for the record though I do expect Rios to bounce back. Still not a certainty though. edit 2: Depending on which Teahen shows up, 3b is another hole.

QUOTE (longshot7 @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 01:53 AM) To be fair, we don't have gigantic holes on this team. They've done a better job this year at filling their holes than in the past. We have a hole in LF, might have a hole in CF, and have a hole at DH.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 20, 2010 -> 12:10 AM) You're confusing Damon with a healthy Carlos Quentin. Damon isn't going to turn a 79-win team into a division champ. LOL at Kenny for destroying Boras' negotiating power. If you're going to lose a bidding war to Boras, you might as well shoot him in the foot. Damon would've been nice, but $7M+ is a lot of money. That would move the payroll up to at least $107M, and I can't fault them for not wanting to go there. I'll take Blalock or some other lesser talent for less money. Those of you talking about a possible AGon extension are nuts. He's going to get Texiera money, and there's no way that the Sox will dole out that type of contract. AGon would be a 1.5-year rental, with the Sox picking up his $5.5M club option next year. And that's IF they can actually agree to a deal with SD. I'd say that Blalock now and/or Crawford in July are MUCH more realistic scenarios. Quentin being healthy is a big if. Considering the offensive production of Dye and Thome hasn't been replaced, a hitter like Damon at DH is critical for the Sox to succeed.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 11:56 PM) The Sox (and everyone else) are afraid Matsui's knees will not allow him to play the OF much. Damon is more versatile because he can stil play the OF and Kotsay is the LH backup 1B so they don't need another one. So they weren't going to sign him unless they were confident he could play the field. They met with him decided he couldn't play the field and that ended it. With Johnson they weren't going to pay a DH only guy 5.5 milllion and since this was early on in the process they weren't going to sign a DH only guy at all. If they were going to do this they would have signed Thome who was going to give them a discount. This shows nothing about how crappy their plan is. It shows how crappy YOU think the plan is because you don't agree with it. The plan is crappy because the depth chart is like 4 deep at every position already. We don't need versatility at DH. we need a real hitter. Not a gamble, not a reclamation project. Seriously, look at this C: A.J., Castro, Flowers, and they're even having Retherford take reps at C. 1B: Konerko, Kotsay, Flowers - really anybody. 2B: Beckham, Teahen, Alexei, Nix, Vizquel, Retherford, Lillibridge, SS: Alexei, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Lillibridge, 3B: Teahen, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Retherford, Lillibridge RF: Quentin, Rios, Kotsay, Jones, Teahen CF: Rios, Jones, Pierre, Alexei LF: Pierre, Quentin, Jones, Kotsay We don't need someone who can rotate in the OF. We don't need someone who can be our 2nd backup IF. Matsui is a great hitter. Thome is a great hitter. Johnson is certainly better than what we're going with. It makes no sense to choose a DH based on their defensive abilities. They wouldn't be a DH if they could field.

^^^ Word is that the caveman image is more than just his looks. QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 11:20 PM) Im dissappointed, but if anything it leaves the door open for a midseason blockbuster. A-Gon, Crawford are 2 HUGE names expected to be available come the trade deadline. With how bad this offense is looking to be, it's unlikely that the Sox will be in a position to make a marquee trade. I'd rather not wait until midseason to fix a hole that's been apparent since the get go.

QUOTE (fathom @ Feb 19, 2010 -> 11:11 PM) Blalock's still out there, but with being a Boras client, I can't see that happening. Blalock would be such a gamble though. He looked terrible last year, is a major injury risk, and is only getting older. Too many question marks as it is.

Welp, with this news, and Branyan signing with the Indians, I guess Jones/Kotsay is now set. Terrible.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Feb 16, 2010 -> 04:37 PM) It's also quite possible that Jones gets DFA'd at some point during the season. If he's not producing or isn't healthy, dumping him would free up a roster spot. Over the past 6 months, Kenny has added Peavy, Rios, Pierre, Putz, Teahen, Jones, and Vizquel. I would've preferred Orlando Hudson over Teahen/Vziquel, but it's difficult for me to find much fault with the rest of those additions. Their payroll is currently over $100M and they're in the lower half of MLB in attendance, so I'm not sure what else you want him to do. Of those though, Peavy and Rios were acquired midseason, while the others are fairly mediocre/bad. His comment was about the offseason, which has not gone well for KW, especially if he ends up with Jones/Kotsay at DH.

QUOTE (GoodAsGould @ Feb 9, 2010 -> 04:11 AM) Im fairly positive White Sox are going to be drafting pitching heavy this upcoming draft which I absolutely don't care for. If I was running a team pitching/hitting wouldnt come into the equation it would always be what our scouts thought was the best player available and how long will he be available. Yeah, I guess the Sox feel that at their number it makes more sense to go for fit over bpa. I'd go for bpa too though. We need pitching and hitting pretty much equally though.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Feb 4, 2010 -> 11:47 PM) They are projecting only one team barely above the break even point in the AL Central The AL West and East have a lot of talent right now. The central could be really bad. Like NL central from a few years ago bad.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jan 31, 2010 -> 07:00 AM) Their defense isn't that bad. I think the Angels have a legit shot at 85 wins. Mariners should take the division though with the Rangers second. The west is slated to be an exciting division for the next few years. Rangers and As have a lot of talent about to come up, and the Ms are built quite well.

I would definitely slot the Mariners to take the west, with maybe the Rangers in second, A's 3rd and Angels last. The Angels have lost a lot of talent, have terrible D, especially in the outfield, and jeez that rotation is just a bunch of #4s.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jan 31, 2010 -> 05:10 AM) Sweeney would be my bet for the prospect most likely to bite us. That's also fine by me since it seems like we won't need him in the future. I'd go with Carter, but at least we got value for him. I think we'd be better off with Sweeney than Pierre though, hands down.

They corrected the PECOTA projections. Sox now projected to take 2nd at 80-82, and with significantly fewer runs scored.

I think Branyan would be a great fit. Seeing as this is probably the DH thread, along with 60% of all the other ones, I wanted to post this about versality C: A.J., Castro, Flowers, and they're even having Retherford take reps at C. 1B: Konerko, Kotsay, Flowers - really anybody. 2B: Beckham, Teahen, Alexei, Nix, Vizquel, Retherford, Lillibridge, SS: Alexei, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Lillibridge, 3B: Teahen, Beckham, Vizquel, Nix, Retherford, Lillibridge RF: Quentin, Rios, Kotsay, Jones, Teahen CF: Rios, Jones, Pierre, Alexei LF: Pierre, Quentin, Jones, Kotsay We do not need a DH that can play the field. We do not need to keep that spot open for rotation to maintain versatility. We have plenty of that. We need a DH who hits the damn ball.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1495 They recognize and admit that there are problems, and will be trying to correct them.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 29, 2010 -> 09:03 PM) Yeah, that'll mess with your ability to play defense. Sucks for him, finally got the chance to play every day, played decently, but probably wont cash in too well off of it due to the market & injury. Which is why he'd probably be cheap and fit in well at DH. Of course considering how little Thome signed for with the Twins, I can't imagine the budget is the issue. Btw, it looks like there was some sort of calculation error in the pecota projections and they're hopefully looking into it. Pecota had a poor showing last year and I really think Silver leaving will set them back quite a bit. But hey let's just think they hate the Sox for some reason. http://rlyw.blogspot.com/2010/01/2010-peco...-standings.html http://vegaswatch.net/search/label/PECOTA

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Jan 29, 2010 -> 02:47 PM) Of course its POSSIBLE the team will give up 80 more runs than last year - but the projections should be what is most likely. You think its most likely that this pitching staff is 80 runs (half a run per game) worse than last year's Opening Day roster? I think the starting staff is better, the bullpen is likely to be similar, and the defense will probably be a little better. Giving up 80 more runs would require all that you mentioned bad to happen, and then some. I don't think it's all that likely, I was just listing some possible ways it could happen. However, if you look across the board, they project a ton of scoring, so it wouldn't be just the Sox having a declined pitching staff. PECOTA isn't really the best of the projection systems (i think CHONE is, not sure though) and I'm willing to bet that Nate Silver leaving really hurt them. I think the methodology of PECOTA is such that it tends to hammer people who are on the downside of their peak while going nuts over pre-peak guys. QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 29, 2010 -> 05:37 PM) Yeah, that is surprising from you... I think they will though... Think back to past years and what predictions have been prior to the season. Let's face it, there are several guys on this team who are going to perform completely differently than what we will predict them to. I think they will be ok, but I also think we will pay for the mistake we just made in bypassing Thome. Yeah, there are guys who will vastly outperform expectations and guys who underperform. That's just gonna happen I don't want to derail the conversation too far, but I think it all matters on how they go about the DH situation. If they go with Kotsay/Jones, then yes, colossal mistake. If they go with Branyan, it's probably not a problem that they passed on Thome.