southsideirish71

Well we have a moron behind home plate waving an orange tee shirt.

Nice changeup by Garland.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 06:43 PM) Kenny is hopefully not that stupid. By the way, aren't we overdue for someone else starting up a "trade for Rowand!" thread? It's been like 3 days without a new one. There are still morons calling into the postgame show and to the radio shows asking for Brian to get traded because they finally read the paper and realize that Brian has a 200 average. They forget the little tidbit that he is one of our hottest hitters over the last month or so. But then again I bet some of these guys were calling into the same radio shows about Dusty Baker and someone named Bartman a few years back.

For those scoring at home, that last catch that Brian had would of fell if Mack was out in center.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 06:38 PM) Thome breaks his bat and we strand Guchi on 2nd. We've hit Robertson hard the past two innings. At least 1 run to show for all of it, but it could have been more (considering Anderson had a hang whiff em right at Inge). Our right handers have the right approach today against a tough lefty. Dont pull the ball, go up the middle or oppo. This is how I wish our team would approach a lot of lefties. It would give us a better shot when we face them.

Garland looks great so far. Everything is down, and he is throwing strikes. What a difference getting ahead of people is for Garland.

QUOTE(NorthSideSox72 @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 05:01 PM) I somehow doubt that Freddy has a bizarre, infectious skin disease which has CNS side effects. But if you remember when we aqquired him, everyone was saying he will regain his velocity. He would have a game here and there were he would hit 96 maybe 97. But for the most part would be at 94 and below. He was saying stuff in the news about how if he had more work in games, he would be stronger and throw harder. He had a medical condition. Maybe Freddy has a medical condition also.

For whatever reason, this year we are seeing more made up trades by our soxtalkers due to a lack of real rumors.

QUOTE(Slugger Yolando @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 04:53 PM) how do i set a darn avatar on this board? i'd like to put up a picture Here is a link to the help forum funtionality of the site. BTW welcome to Soxtalk How does tha work Soxtalk

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 04:27 PM) If he gets the velocity back, it could mean getting back to where he was last year. The same could be said for Billy Koch.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 04:33 PM) I voted none. With ERAs over 5, Garcia and Vazquez have no value on the trade market, Garland has a 1-year no-trade, and Buehrle and Contreras and McCarthy obviously aren't going anywhere. I expect KW to stick to his 3-year plan and ride it out with these starters. We may go down in flames, but that won't necessarily be the wrong choice. Frankly, if you take Garcia out of the equation, the Sox, even in a good year, will have only 1 postseason ACE -- Contreras. We saw last year and over the last 3 games that good hitting teams can expose Mark Buehrle. He doesn't have the stuff to dominate. In that way, he's a lot like the soft-tossing Atlanta starters -- Glavine, Maddux -- who could never get them over the hump in the postseason. He's a solid #2 or #3 guy, but there are a lot of guys can beat him. Jon Garland may still get better. It's possible he could develop more sink to his sinker or improve his changeup. And he still has a live arm. But do you trust him in a big game? He pitched very well for us against LAA, and battled after Houston got to him a bit, but neither of those teams had powerful patient lineups. Frankly, he may be our second best starter at the moment. Javy Vazquez has never pitched and won a big game in his life. And he appears to shrink the minute he runs into some adversity. Maybe he can be toughened and improved, but he's not trustworthy. McCarthy is completely unproven at this point. Want to stake our playoff lives on giving him a start? (The answer could be YES if these other guys don't turn it around.) As bad as Garcia is now, he's the only one who has had both the stuff and the moxie to defeat powerful hitting teams in big games in the past. So my crystal ball indicates that Kenny Williams is going to stand pat with his starters, but try to add one more arm to the pen to make sure late inning leads stay that way. Last season had he traded Contreras or McCarthy, as many people advocated, we'd be completely screwed. I don't think he's going to go down that road this year either. This is confusing. Freddy Garcias has Mark Buerhles fastball this year. So if good hitting teams can expose Mark who actually has good control, what will they do to Garcia. Without his big fastball, he doesnt have the stuff nor the moxie to do a thing. If you dont believe me, just check out what he did against a medicore New York Lineup. Remember the good old Freddy, on the road, in the day against a good team he was a lock. This year he gets rocked. This statement is the most perplexing. "We may go down in flames, but that won't necessarily be the wrong choice. " So staying put and not upgrading anything and hoping and praying will work. Last year we had a 15 game lead in and around the draft deadline. This year we are not sitting so pretty. KW wants to win now. If you think he is looking 3 years ahead, I think you forget whom your GM is. He has passed on prospects like they are pawns in a chess game. I say KW makes one big move, and 2 smaller moves. At least one of them will be for bullpen.

QUOTE(IowaSoxFan @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 04:10 PM) I would not trade him, just because he has been sooo bad lately that you could not get good value for him. His arm is dead from throwing so much in the last year. I just dont see the Sox getting of good value back trading him right now. I dont buy this excuse. Roy Oswalt also threw over 240 innings last year and pitched just as long as our starters into the world series. Guess what, he still throws the ball hard.

QUOTE(iamshack @ Jul 18, 2006 -> 04:05 PM) Before we all write him off as Rodrigo Lopez or something, it may be interesting to note that Freddy had a 5.05 ERA last July. It isn't the awful 7.50 ERA he is sporting this July, but then again, he has 2 more starts to make this month. I am not happy with the guy either. But some of this is just piling on. If he was truly throwing 94 again on Sunday, that is a great sign. Remember how quickly things can change, folks. He has been throwing slow all year long. Every so often he has one start where his fastball is above 90. Before we declare him cured, lets see if he can start a game where he comes out of the gate throwing a good fastball, then in the next start does the same thing. Funny you should mention Rodrigo Lopez, who also had a mysterious velocity drop that has lead to his undoing.

You have to wonder about someones mental state, when a trade rumor comes out, and then after he gets rocked a bit, he flashes a fastball above 90 for the first time in forever. If I see 91-94 on the gun from the first inning on for more than 1 start then I will be convinced that Freddy is cured.

hat looked like the Terminator, only slower. Maybe it was his out-of-stater, or it could have been the Hibernator--that baby is definitely going away for the winter. Whatever for Vaughn, it might be see-ya-later. He's probably gonna become a spectator. ----- If he is purposely throwing slower, then he should of watched Major League II and see how it all worked out for Rick Vaugn. I watched it last night, and his Terminator was hitting the same 86 on the gun we have seen from Freddy most of this year. If you can throw hard, then throw hard. If you cant, then get the MRI.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 10:25 PM) C'mon. Haven't got the creativity to pen a few lines to the success of your favorite team? I'm actually pretty disappointed that so few Sox talk posters seem to be able to conjure up odes to the success of the Sox. I can honestly say the last possible thing I ever thought I would see from sox fans is "Please recite your victory haiku". Its almost creepy.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:35 PM) So, in other words, you would agree that he'd be, at best, the third best pitcher in our bullpen, behind Jenks and Cotts, based on ERA+? (Which is exactly what I said.) Or is Jenks' ERA+ actually lower than Linebrinks? I bet it is. Which illustrates why that stat is not all that it is cracked up to be. I assume you wouldn't supplant Bobby Jenks with Scott Linebrink?? But just to be clear about this, I probably wouldn't trade Josh Fields for Neal Cotts, and I think VERY highly of Neal Cotts. (Maybe Fields will be a bust, but the way he's come on in AAA after posting so-so AA stats indicates to me the guy could be a star. And any everyday player who is above league average is worth more than a set-up bullpen guy.) I'm not averse to adding Linebrink (though I still think Gordon is better). Just not at the price some guys were suggesting. So who would you trade Fields for. Would Santana or Liriano pry him away from you. Lets be realistic on our prospects. He hasnt played a lick of major league ball and you are ready to veto a trade for a dominant reliever because you a projecting someones worth. You realize that we have a 3rd baseman already. And as much as we have talked about moving him to LF. His largest value is at 3rd. We have traded prospects that are considered much better than Fields with a much higher ceiling.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:25 PM) What happens to him when patient AL teams like Boston and the Yankees don't bite on his splitter, which I assume falls out of the zone? If he's so great, his production ought to be better. But, not to be misunderstood. I'd take him. Just not for anything like Josh Fields. Even patient teams have a hard time distinguishing from a 0-2 fastball on the corner at 95 and a splitter that starts out on the outside corner at 91. Outside of Jenks and Thornton none of our relievers have true strikeout stuff. They are contact pitchers who pitch to an advange of getting ahead and letting our defense do the rest. You realize that Josh Fields is playing in a bandbox right. The same bandbox that inflated the Jeremy Reeds who looked like world beaters. I think Josh is a fine prospect. But I think he is at an alltime high and with Crede under control for a while the more we can get, the better. I dont see him as a .320 hitter in the majors. Remember also we have dumped a lot of prospects considered much better than fields.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:20 PM) Well, you may be right. I don't get to see enough live games to judge his velocity. And I can't attest to him having good velocity when he was getting rocked in Seattle. But just because he has a dead arm at the moment doesn't mean he's done for his career. If he is able to revive his arm -- maybe a DL stint is necessary -- all I'm saying is he's a much better big game bet than Javier Vazquez - even with a dead arm. BTW - How did he win the 1-0 game against the Cardinals this year? The same Cardinals that were destroyed by every single AL Central team that it met. Lets not use a team from the NL to compare how great Freddy has done this year. If a simple DL visit would fix Freddys arm, with Bmac ready to go. Dont you think they would of DLed him already. He has had the dead arm all year long. Not just lately. If you feel comfortable will having Freddy and his 86-88 mph fastball run in the playoffs because he pitched well in 2005, I think you are taking blind faith a bit far. Last year when El Duque was below 90 he would get rocked. Then we would DL him, he would regain some velocity and then would be okay. Above 90 El Duque could get people out, below 90 he was meat. Now El Duque is old, and has had numerous documented arm problems. Freddy is younger, and hasnt had any arm issues. Freddy cannot pitch succesfully below 90 unless he learns how to paint the black with his pitches.

A splitter is a pitch that seperates him from the David Riske types that were discussed earlier. A good splitter with an overpowering fastball leads to strikeouts. And for all the people making comments that Linebrink is a product of Petco. His home numbers are worse than his away numbers. He has a 3.74 ERA at home. Versus a 1.64 ERA away from home. He is really tough on lefties, .159BAA, righties only bat .243 against him.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 09:09 PM) Josh Fields will not step in and take over 3b for Castilla and Bellhorn. What 1st place team wants to take a huge risk to put a rookie out there? They'll want a vet. They might still pick up a vet, a rental. However they need someone that can play long term at that position. They havent had a good prospect with power at third for a long time. Sean Burroughs was guy that never developed power. They are dying for a 3rd base right handed hitting power prospect.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 08:57 PM) One proposed trade I suggested was Javier Vazquez and Scott Podsednik for Tom Gordon and Bobby Abreu, with the possibility of adding a minor league pitcher on our side to get it done. Gordon is and has been a closer for most of his career, and is MUCH better IMHO than Scott Linebrink will ever dream of being. He is also signed for two more years and shows no signs of slowing down. He'd give us a lights-out bullpen. McCarthy would move into the rotation and give us some of the young energy that the Tigers and Twins have. Abreu might be willing to waive his no-trade to play for Ozzie on a World Champion without demanding an extension. As a lead off man, he'd be a vast improvement over Podsednik. This deal would seek to accomplish much of what a Linebrink/Cameron deal would, except that we'd end up with much higher quality players -- Abreu is 3rd in baseball in OBP, and has 19 SBs to only 4 CSs -- who are tied up through at least next year. This kind of trade would give us a chance at back-to-back-to-back WS titles. As for Freddy Garcia, I agree he's an enigma. I suppose you could substitute him for Vazquez in the deal above, but I still trust Garcia a lot more than Vazquez, who has yet to pitch a big game in his life. Garcia has been a money guy -- and was our second best starter last postseason. He was 3-0, and never let the other team have a lead in any of those games, including the 1-0 WS clincher. He's had bad stretches in the past -- remember 2003 with Seattle? -- and come out of it. Maybe he won't this year, but I hold out more hope for that than that Javier Vazquez will ever learn how to win a big game. All the stuff about the legend of Freddy Garcia must be thrown out with his arm issues. Last year and in all of his years with the sox. On the road, during the day, against a good team was a lock. Now he is getting rocked, why...because an 88 mph fastball is easy to tee off on when it isnt located. The Freddy Garcia who threw the 1-0 game last year doesnt exist this year. If he did, he wouldnt be on the block. Freddy is getting absolutely rocked when he faces half way decent AL teams. Last year, he would pitch great against those teams. Billy Koch threw 100mph, and was an elite closer. Then he lost 6 mph on his fastball and was meat. 94 was still fast enough, however Billy didnt have the control to pitch at 94. The same with Freddy. Sure pitchers can pitch in the 80s in the mlb. But they must have excellent control on the corners. Not just throw it over the plate for a strike. You keep bringing up about how he had bad stretches before. He never ever, ever threw this slow before. Not in a game, not for most of the season. He has always been 91-95. When he faced us in Seattle in 2000 he was mid 90s, all last year he was living 92-94. Now all of a sudden poof his velocity is gone. There is something different this year. So all bets are off.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 08:13 PM) That would be a HORRIBLE trade for the Sox. Here are Scott Linebrinks' career stats. 2001 Hou 9 0 0 0 10.1 6 4 3 0 6 9 0 0 0 0 -- 2.61 2002 Hou 22 0 0 0 24.1 31 21 19 2 13 24 0 0 0 1 -- 7.03 2003 Hou 9 6 0 0 31.2 38 15 15 4 14 17 1 1 0 0 -- 4.26 2003 SD 43 0 0 0 60.2 55 22 19 5 22 51 2 1 0 6 -- 2.82 2003 -- 52 6 0 0 92.1 93 37 34 9 36 68 3 2 0 6 -- 3.31 2004 SD 73 0 0 0 84.0 61 22 20 8 26 83 7 3 0 28 5 2.14 2005 SD 73 0 0 0 73.2 55 17 15 4 23 70 8 1 1 26 5 1.83 2006 SD 41 0 0 0 43.2 31 13 13 8 11 43 6 2 1 18 4 2.68 Total -- 281 6 0 0 340.1 295 122 112 35 123 303 24 8 2 79 14 2.96 Here are David Riske's 2001 Cle 26 0 0 0 27.1 20 7 6 3 18 29 2 0 1 3 0 1.98 2002 Cle 51 0 0 0 51.1 49 32 30 8 35 65 2 2 1 5 0 5.26 2003 Cle 68 0 0 0 74.2 52 21 19 9 20 82 2 2 8 17 5 2.29 2004 Cle 72 0 0 0 77.1 69 32 32 11 41 78 7 3 5 9 7 3.72 2005 Cle 58 0 0 0 72.2 55 28 25 11 15 48 3 4 1 0 0 3.10 2006 Bos 8 0 0 0 9.2 8 4 4 2 3 5 0 1 0 0 -- 3.72 2006 CWS 12 0 0 0 12.0 8 2 2 1 7 9 0 1 0 2 -- 1.50 2006 -- 20 0 0 0 21.2 16 6 6 3 10 14 0 2 0 2 -- 2.49 Total -- 307 0 0 0 339.0 281 141 131 47 145 332 17 14 16 36 13 3.48 Both players will turn 30 this year, Linebrink in August, Riske in October. I've tossed both players' first year in the league. Given the fact that Riske has played his entire career in the AL versus the much easier league, and ballpark, that Linebrink has been pitching in, it is hard to make a case that Linebrink is that much better than Riske. He looks like basically the same pitcher to me. They both throw mostly fastballs, with some sliders and change ups. So, if David Riske was available for a AAA LOOGY who wasn't making our team anytime soon, then Linebrink isn't worth that much more. Now that's not to say San Diego would take a LOOGY for him, but he's certainly not worth anything close to the guy who may be the Sox best positional prospect. So put your GM hat on and tell us what you would do, who you would trade for. And if the answer is just to stand pat and hope that all gets better. That really isnt an option. Because outside of your stat model, one of our pitchers mysteriously is throwing a lot less than he has ever in his career. And he isnt building velocity. And remember, Roy Oswalt pitched just as long and just as far as our starters did in the season. He threw 241.2 innings. Yet by some miracle, he still has his velocity. His ERA is up from 2.94 to 3.06. But outside of that his numbers are similiar.

These threads are getting wierder by the day. Nothing screams to me more for american baseball, than Japanese poetry.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Jul 17, 2006 -> 07:25 PM) I'd vote against trading Freddy. I remember in 2003 he had a very very bad stretch with Seattle where he got lit up start after start. Yet he pulled out of that spin quite nicely. I realize he's thrown up a lot of junk lately, but I think when he's on, he's got the second best stuff on the staff behind only Contreras. And he's proven he can be a money pitcher. He won all three of his starts last offseason and never let the other team get the lead in any game. I expect that somehow he's going to regain his form and will have several more very good years. Not 20-win seasons. But 15-17 win seasons. And he's young enough that he could win another 100 games in his career. There is no way that we could get fair value for him at this point. When is he going to throw hard again. When I see him hit 91-94 from the start of the game, through the end for a few starts, then I will be on the Freddy is alright tour. But ask yourself this. Freddy was almost traded in the offseason, and now is being dangled. Why? I think KW has a good idea of talent and what not to give up, and what to give up. KW will do something.