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Which is probably why he just should've been IL'd right away and Goodwin or Gonzalez brought up.

If it helps we can only use the Reign of Reindorf to talk about no back to back playoffs if that makes you feel better. Normally we just say history of the franchise because that is a fact. Would've made it this year or that year if playoff formats had been different or if there was no strike in 94 etc. doesn't change the facts. It's still been a long ass time for a franchise with 120 years of history through luck , injuries, mismanagement, cheap owners , whatever to never make the playoffs 2 years in a row. Because of the rebuild there's a shot at it but once again Sox misfortune/mismangement w/e rears it's consistently ugly head like it has for 120 yrs.

Oh for heavens sake why the fuck was it patronizing ? I don't know if you know the rules or not and your post didn't make it clear what you knew because you didn't mention a substitution. What the fuck am I supposed to think if you didn't explain it better ? You made no mention of Lamb or Kopech. Holy hell I was as nice as can be pointing out perhaps you misinterpreted the rule and even asked you to kindly explain your thinking to me if I understood you wrong. What you perceive as patronizing I thought I was helping a fellow Sox fan understand the rules better. I also realized you could've knew the rules and kindly asked you to explain what you were thinking since if was far from apparent.

Right which I also pointed out when in that long winded post by saying TLR also had the option of just letting Mendick pinch run for Vaughn to start the inning instead of the double switch. I really did try to cover every option.

That's fine I was just pointing out TLR's options and one of them was to have Leury bunting . Typically I agree in that situation a bunt could've been the best move and pointing out how Leury hadn't been successful at it this season could've played a part in TLR's mind. And if unsuccessful we have people here screaming why is he bunting with Leury with the unsuccessful Leury bunts still fresh in their minds.

Or since you really don't want Vaughn running either you just don't make the double switch and let Mendick run for Vaughn and deal with the pitchers spot up 4th in the next inning when it comes up when you still have Collins, Lamb and Eaton ( to a lesser extent because he was ailing) on the bench. Sox FO didn't do LaRussa any favors by not anticipating trouble with CF during a 2 game NL series by not IL'ing Eaton and bringing up either Goodwin or Luis Gonzalez. I'm not entirely sure what you said is correct. Abreu and Hendrick were already in the game. You can't just switch their spots in the batting order . The purpose of a double switch is bringing a new player into the game. This is from Baseball Reference: A double switch is a substitution during which two or more players are substituted simultaneously and take places in the batting order different from those of the player they replaced. A double switch is typically used in situations where the designated hitter is not used and the pitcher is one of the players being substituted. The purpose of the move is to change the pitcher's slot in the batting order, so that the new pitcher does not immediately come up to bat in the next half inning. For example, if the left fielder, batting seventh, made the last out in the preceding half inning, a manager who wishes to change his pitcher in the middle of the following inning may elect to also change his left fielder, moving the new LF to the 9th slot of the order, and the new pitcher to 7th. This allows his team to have a better hitter coming up second in his team's next turn at bat, while not having to decide whether to pinch hit for his pitcher for a while. So if Vaughn stays into run where is the double switch since you aren't bringing a new player in the the game ? I think what you are suggesting is just switching Hendricks with Abreu in the batting order which is not allowed. Correct me if I am wrong on what you proposed to do because I don't see any new player coming into the game with your suggestion.

Maybe you are condensing the part about the pitcher making the last out in the 9th inning because of the double switch.But Vaughn made the last out in the 9th inning when he hit into the DP. Vaughn would have been the runner on 2nd base and due up in the 10th was Grandal, Garcia, Hamilton and the pitcher's spot. He didn't want Vaughn on 2nd so TLR made a double switch inserting Lamb into the pitchers spot making him the 4th batter due up and Hendricks into Vaughn's spot thus making Hendricks the runner on 2nd. Guys left on the bench were Mendick, Collins, Eaton ( who was ailing with hamstring issues so not a serious option to pinch run had LaRussa chosen to pinch run for Vaughn). As far as I know though, their options in CF were limited to Garcia and Hamilton. With Eaton ailing maybe the Sox should have IL'd him and brought up a fresh body. The Sox did not bring up Luis Gonzalez nor the recently signed Brian Goodwin thus handicapping TLR options . TLR could've chosen to either let Vaughn run or pinch run for him with his only real choice which was Mendick . That would leave Collins , Lamb and Eaton on the bench with the pitcher spot due up 4th. He also could've made the double switch with the rules allowing for Abreu to run in place of the pitcher. Again not a great option for the lead runner. Let's say instead of the double switch he used Mendick to pinch run . As the inning starts with Mendick on 2nd , Grandal walks. 1 and 2nd no outs. Leury AB ,choices are sac bunt or let him hit. Leury hasn't shown he is a good bunter having attempted 2 earlier in the season and getting neither one down. Leury is fast but anybody can hit into a ground ball DP if hit to the right spot or perhaps TLR should've bunted to get the lead run to 3rd base with 1 out and Grandal to 2nd. Maybe LaRussa chose not to bunt there because he put an inexperienced runner on 2nd base. If Mendick is on 2nd is the bunt more of an option ? Even with a successful bunt you still have Hamilton coming up with men on 2nd and 3rd with 1 out. Then what ? Reds probably chose to pitch to him but what if you pinch hit Collins/Lamb for him do the Reds pitch to Collins/Lamb or walk him ? Remember if it's Mendick now on 3rd the pitchers spot is up next so do you burn the rest of you bench (except for Eaton). Anyway so Leury doesn't sac bunt and hits into a force out . Mendick now on 3rd, Leury on 1st . Options: let Hamilton swing away or try a suicide or safety squeeze or pinch hit for Hamilton with a slower batter more likely to hit into a DP but more likely to hit a sac fly or get a hit or give Leury a shot at stealing 2nd with the strong armed Tucker Barnhart behind the plate . Now if Mendick is on 3rd perhaps Barnhart doesnt throw through to 2nd base but with Hendriks on 3rd a throw is more likely since the threat of Hendriks stealing home are not high. If the attempted steal is successful now 1st base is open . Reds more than likely pitch to Hamilton hoping for the K , but do they pitch to Collin/Lamb if they pinch hit ? Don't try the steal at all and Hamilton can still try the bunt . As far as i remember Hamilton isn't a bad bunter.If Hamilton is pinch hit for it opens up a whole new set options for the Reds manager to do but at least we have one of Collins or Lamb left to hit in the pitchers spot if there is no double play . If you don't even attempt the steal , you risk the DP if Hamilton swings away but highly unlikely with his speed. You pinch hit for him and the DP risk is much higher with either Collins or Lamb. If you suicide or safety squeeze with Hamilton tthat's a tough choice too Anyway the purpose of this I suppose is to see what a large array of things that could happen and why some love NL baseball because there is so much strategy involved . A manager has to be at the top of his game especially in extra innings with the runner on 2nd rules. The choice of the double switch with Hendriks running set up the rest of his calls for that inning all of which turned out poorly .

Ok Now I'm really starting to believe our one certain poster is Bernstein because now thats 2 examples that the poster has used about the use of "we" and now the karma thing.

One of our most knowledgeable posters said in the game thread to send Leury on the 1st pitch to Hamilton. No one said a word to him about it right after he said it nor later. I, myself knew Vaughn was due to be the runner on 2nd to start the 10th so I asked what should LaRussa do ? Does he pinchrun Mendick ? No one answered me . Not being used to watching NL baseball I completely forgot about the double switch just like Fegan admitted in his tweet . But yea lots of bad baseball decisions. Could have done so many things different. Leury up with men on 1st and 2nd no outs. Could've had him try a sac bunt. Of course Leury looked like shit on previous bunt attempts in past games so LaRussa lets him swing away . But I think you still have to manage to get a run across. Let's say Leury made a successful sac bunt, then 1st base is open with Hamilton up or someone to pinch hit like Collins, big strong guy capable of hitting a sac fly also a big K guy but so is Hamilton. Do the Reds pitch to or IBB Collins? Hope for the K then walk the next guy to hope for a DP? Go for another K ? Who's up next Lamb ? So so many different ways this could have played out but somehow every choice was the wrong one compounded by not knowing the rules. The 1st decision he made for Hendricks to be on 2nd was so Hendricks could pitch another inning but there wasn't really a need to have Hendricks pitch the next inning . Still had plenty of good arms left and a day off the next day. These new rules were designed to have games end quicker so burn your bench players if you have to. Pinch run or pinch hit and if you end up with Mendick in the OF so be it but 1 run was all important. Get the lead and use as many arms as you have left to try to preserve the lead in the bottom of the 10th.

We have a guy that does that here. Maybe he is Bernstein. It's common to do that . It's shorter to type we than White Sox or Sox though I have tried to stop saying "we" as much.

This is what I struggle with when people say Gallo is perfect. It could end up like having Adam Dunn in CF . The Sox are already 1st in OBP and yeah another OBP guy would be great but we also don't need a slow footed type patrolling CF . The guy is massive. If anyone is looking for reasons like leg injuries to why he has slowed down you really don't have to look any further than 6'5" 250+ lbs. The power is much needed but what the Sox really need right now is a true CF for a little while until we discover if Engel can come back in a month without another in his long line of setbacks. Proposition Gallo in RF all you want I'm on board but no way for CF. If his speed keeps declining as it has been, he won't win any more GG in RF and will just be another DH/1B added to the team with too many of those already. I'm just going to guess we see Brian Goodwin a lot more than Hamilton in the lineup from now on and once Engel comes back Hamilton is gone. I'd gladly take that lifetime .772 OPS over Hamilton's .619.

I think did make a difference in the game but you can't say it did or didn't make a difference because we don't have a crystal to look at all possible outcomes. Let's say Tony made the right moves and the Sox got a run then they enter the bottom of the 10th leading 1-0. And instead of Hendricks, Bummer is in the game now. Bummer doesn't give up any runs and the Sox win 1-0.

Do you have info the rest of us don't have? Eloy yes, still very much a question mark on Robert.

A Laugher followed by a clown show that highlights the worse of the offense, the manager , the GM and the owner. Well that didn't last long ! I should cross off the GM . He's not allowed to make any moves without running it past TLR or JR. So yeah cross off the GM.

A lot more can happen than just a CS or runner making it home on a throw through. A runner on 3rd has to represent a credible threat to score on a double steal. If he is a credible threat, the catcher can either hold onto the ball or throw it. He can throw it to 3rd to attempt to pick off the runner on third after faking a throw to 2nd. He can look like he's throwing it to 2nd and the pitcher cuts it off and hopes the runner on 3rd strays too far and then throws to 3rd to try and get him. The catcher could throw through to 2nd base but the infielder covering 2nd cuts the ball off well in front of the base to try to get the runner at home if he's actually running . Not anybody at 3rd scores there because the situation changes depending on who the runner is.

Sure Hahn goes rogue, fires LaRussa, JR fires Hahn, hires LaRussa back. KW is the new GM yay another puppet GM. Can't stop the JR show. It has never been about Hahn, this is JR's toy.

Right, I know all the bad things that happened but it really appears that someone here will not be able to provide a step by step analysis of options LaRussa had he chosen to do different things, like if he had decided Heuer, Bummer or someone else pitch the bottom of the inning, or making a different double switch and just do whatever you can to score a run even if it means Mendick in the OF and using up your whole bench to pitch run and pinch hit. Just too many damn rules to know how it could've been handled differently/optimally. All we know is that how it was handled was really bad. I mean hey he could've asked the umps for help right ? They'd have to answer his questions. What if I do this? What if I do that ?

Ok I appreciate the effort but I asked a lot more questions that need to be answered. What I'm looking for is an answer that sets the whole inning up from the beginning, then list all the options that LaRussa had. Who is due up and when ?I mean I assume something couldve been done where Hendricks is not used at all and another pitcher just comes in when the inning is over. Would it absolutely have to be Hendricks or Abreu or could either one be pinch run for? I need a one batter at a time analysis from the top of the inning on. I know that would be an extremely long post but this needs in depth knowledge of all the rules involved and I'm not sure anyone is up to the challenge. ALl i know is LaRussa fucked up but ideally what should've been done according to all the rules and all the players left on the bench to insure we had enough players to cover the bottom half of the 10th. Something like this: Top of the 10th. This person will be on 2nd base unless LaRussa does one of these options: 1. Makes a double switch . 2 If a double switch is made ,what double switches could've been made? Who is then due up ? If he doesn't double switch what are his options then and who is due up ? Can he pinch run for the runner on 2nd ? and on and on.

I put this in the game thread but since it's being discussed here does anyone want to take a stab at all my questions? This is not an attempt to excuse Larussa. I just want to know if anyone clearly knows how that 10th inning ,when the Sox were batting, could've been handled ideally from beginning to end taking into account who was due up and who was on the bench.

Well that's where we could debate the rule but I don't know it that well and I'm not sure who knows every aspect of it. People are saying Abreu then would've been the runner but is there a rule that says you cannot use a pinch runner in the situation if they make the double switch or even if he doesn't ? Or a different double switch where someone else becomes the runner instead of Hendriks or ABreu ? Basically what I'm asking is for someone who knows every rule in that situation to set the inning from the beginning and the list the options according to who was left on the bench. Who was supposed to be the runner on second before the inning started ? Was the pitchers spot due to open the inning in the batting order ? Was a double switch necessary or could whoever made the last out the previous inning be put on second then pinch run for ? Could a different double switch has been made ? If the pitcher's spot was due up then you pinch hit for him while also having used someone to pinch run if that's allowed if you don't make the double switch ? Then you might have to also pinch hit for Hamilton if it gets to that point ? ARe there enough bench players left with all that going on to have all the positions covered if the Sox fail to score a run ? There was so much going on that I'm not sure anyone here knows all the rules. LaRussa should have known but there is a heckuva lot to dissect .

It's splitting hairs but I would ve preferred every attempt to get a run and be ahead entering the inning. Yes pinching to Winker was really dumb but 2 and 3rd and no outs the Sox probably lose no matter what anyway. If Hendricks isn't used to run and Leury does attempt to steal maybe Barnhardt doesn't throw the ball through to 2nd . Could the Sox have used Mendick in that situation? Lot's of stuff to consider since I'm not well versed in the rules in that situation either. Bummer couldve pitched the 10th . No sense using Hendriks again . Get a run and use another pitcher.

We agree on something !

I'm pretty sure it is but he'd have been out of the game then but that's ok if you bring in Bummer to replace him.

Or just DFA'd Hamilton and put Goodwin on the roster right away. Close to .800 OPS with Angels the last 2 years would suggest he's a much better hitter than Hamilton and the Sox need hitting more than they need Hamilton.

That's just playing for the DP not really a shift. So it's not a shift in the traditional sense. You always play up the middle with a runner on 1st and 1 out.