ptatc

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 31, 2016 -> 11:24 AM) Small sample sizes won't totally right off a prospect, but they can damage their stock. AJ reeds disastrous 48 games was enough to bring his prospect stock into question. Joey Gallo has done massive damage to his stock as well. Moncada I am not worried about. He got rushed to the MLB level and has never played at AAA. Giolito had a tough second half, but still posted pretty solid AAA numbers. He could bounce back in 2017. Moncada had 20 PAs. There is nothing that should be determined from that. With the other, they all hadover 100 PAs so that can make you think a little. I didn't watch them so they would need to look at how their approach was as opposed to just the stats.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 31, 2016 -> 11:07 AM) So I'm missing one thing here, what is the additional risk that we'd have to take on to apply pressure to them? No matter what we do the calculus isn't going to change - there are only a handful of teams left who could offer an appropriate price, and until more than 1 of them decides he's a priority the other teams can wait for our price to fall. What can the White Sox do to change this dynamic other than drop his price or wait? They should wait until the season unfolds, if these are the offers. One of the contenders is going to short one quality starter and it may push them over the edge. If not, the try again next year.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 31, 2016 -> 10:55 AM) And even so, that offer is more than vast majority of league could offer as their framework. The sox should just keep q then. He is more valuable than that package.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Dec 31, 2016 -> 10:22 AM) I agree he's not Betts and I said so; but it's the same issue. When top prospects succeed in their cup of coffee, their value to the team, especially a contender, is much higher. Trading young productive hitters opens another hole for them; which they may be able to get by with Jaso et al this year, but the Pirates are not and never will be "all in" for one given year. The Pirates have several other prospects that the Sox could use. As for the Astros, I would consider Reed among the 2nd tier. He failed in his cup of coffee, but may have been rushed a bit, and the value now is heavily discounted. I think they could do a deal with Yankees, if they would take Rutherford + secondary pieces. Is that enough? I would disagree that a small sample size (under 100 AB) will significantly change the value of the prospect. It does change if it's closer to half a full season. The value changes if the MLB is counting on them for the upcoming year, regardless of the performance the past year.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 31, 2016 -> 10:22 AM) If we're serious about making an appropriate deal I don't believe that will be the case (unless the value of the player goes up due to improvement in the player's performance). Our job here is to make the White Sox world series champions and that means acquiring as much talent as possible. If we aren't offered enough talent for our players, we should avoid moving them until someone offers an appropriate talent level. If that team had refused to meet your demands in the offseason and then they come to you midseason with a truly fair offer, do you turn it down to be vindictive? That might fit in "The Art of the Deal", but it's bad baseball GMing. We clearly have had some "issues" in the past with the nationals as an organization, yet when they put a strong deal on the table for Sale and Eaton we were content to do business with them. I agree. With Quintana's contract, it is even more important to stick to this. We will be under a reasonable contract when the team is ready to compete again. There is absolutely no reason to move him unless they get a deal they are comfortable with.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 06:49 PM) C - Ron Karkovice 1B - Frank Thomas 2B - Ray Durham 3B - Herbert Perry SS - Craig Grebeck OF - Ivan Calderon OF - Lance Johnson OF - Dan Pasqua DH - Greg Luzinski SP - Jason Bere SP - Freddy Garcia SP - Bartolo Colon SP - Jose Quintana MR - Scott Radinsky MR - Matt Thornton CL - Bobby Thigpen Another member of the Church of Calderonists. RIP

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 05:06 PM) Is it wrong that, despite knowing Sale is better, that Buehrle is my favorite pitcher of all time? (Only 25 years old so didn't see McDowell or others mentioned) Basically started getting into baseball around 99/2000 so I basically started from the beginning with Buehrle's career (and Paulie's for that matter). I don't think favorite has anything to do with how good they were (are)? Watching Ron Leflore run around and get hit on the head with a fly ball was entertaining. He was by no means the best OF or even in the team picture.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 03:52 PM) Sox could find themselves with a decision to make this time next year with Rodon if he can put it all together and realize his potential. If they can overcome the Boras factor and lock him up that would be the most ideal, but can't rule out dealing him if he appears intent on testing the market right in the middle of what should be the Sox window. If he is still a boras client, you know he will. This was the whole purpose of the agreement to bring him to the MLB his first year, to make sure that clock moves quickly and get to FA as soon as possible.

C: Booter Hill 1B: Konerko 2B: Donnie Hill (because he was amphibious) SS: Guillen 3B: Ventura LF: Calderon CF: LeFlore RF: Baines DH: Thomas SP: McDowell SP: Hoyt SP: Sale SP: Buehrle SP: Dotson RP: Thigpen RP: Barojas RP: Hernandez RP: Radinsky

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 03:30 PM) Who said that? I didn't. I said in a Postseason matchup, I'd favor Q, all else being equal, mostly because Sale tends to break down at the end of the year. Over the course of a season or career, of course I'd take Sale, but not by much. Same thing still applies. In any single game, Sale has the potential to dominate compared to Q. I'll take Sale. And if you barely take Sale, you're nuts but to each his own.

QUOTE (Jake @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 02:15 PM) I would say that it's very possible, but not probable, that Quintana is more valuable (disregarding contract) over the next 3 years. I think the main scenario that would make Q more valuable is an injury to Sale, something that feels more likely to happen to Sale but hasn't really ever materialized. An injury is always possible. However, as the GM making this trade are you going to bet your top minor league talent on it? I wouldn't.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 02:11 PM) I'm beginning to think he's a member of the 2017 White Sox. If I'm starting to think it - maybe opposing GM's are as well... which could be just what hahn wants. In a rebuilding Hahn and Hostetler I trust. I agree. And I'm ok with it.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 01:24 PM) That is an intriguing package. Severino could make or break that package. Well if true, Cashman turned it down so it wouldn't be quite that package anyway.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 01:16 PM) First time I've seen names from the Yanks in talks for Q. https://elitesportsny.com/2016/12/30/despit...must-stick-plan That should give people a little perspective on what other GM's think he is worth.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 12:54 PM) This is the same thing I have said before. It amazes me how some people are so quick to undervalue and even denigrate our own players. In the case of Quintana, or our other main players, I can't figure out how someone thinks that in February his value suddenly declines? We don't have to trade Q period unless we get our asking price double period ? Correct. They should keep him if they aren't satisfied with the deal. I don't think anyone said his value has declined. I think what most are saying is that many on this board had unrealistic expectations.

QUOTE (shipps @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 12:53 PM) He definitely isnt if you factor in marketability and give style points. But teams have to focus on winning and let their other players bring those things. Regardless of those. There isn't really anything Quintana does better than Sale, except maybe give up a few less HR's. Sale has more K's and fewer BB over the last 4 years. he also has pitched slightly fewer innings.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 12:49 PM) That's an awful trade for the Sox? That would be by far the best trade they've made thus far. I agree. That would be a really good one.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 12:35 PM) They can still threaten to tag him and then trade him right? With the amount of cap space the Bears have, I don't see why you wouldn't just tag him for a second year. Assuming a rookie QB, having a guy with Alshon's skills would be a nice security blanket for a young QB. Missing most of the season with injuries and having very little practice time with the new qb?

QUOTE (shipps @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 12:38 PM) We are starting to talk ourselves into Q being overrated and not as valuable already. Crazy talk. All depends on where you rated him to begin with. I still don't think he is as valuable as Sale was.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 12:39 PM) Strongly disagree. A lot of teams are not capable of paying TOR $30 million a year, and there are several who are that are trying to get under the luxury tax. There will always be a huge market for Q as long as he performs like he has performed. No doubt.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 12:24 PM) It's funny that you say that, because based on Sale's September meltdowns and Q's incredible consistency, in a Sale vs. Q postseason matchup, provided everything else was relatively equal, I'd put my money on Q. Of course other teams want to undervalue Q, they're the ones potentially paying the price for him, but to suggest that the White Sox should significantly lower their standards from a Sale package is wrong IMO. If another team wants Q, they need to pay an appropriate price for him, and the White Sox should not back down from that line of thought just because those teams don't want to do what it takes to get a player the caliber of Q. If you truly think you would rather have Quintana than Sale, be my guest. however, I think you may one of the few. There is a reason boston wanted Sale not Quintana even though Quintana had a more favorable contract.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 11:54 AM) I was reading the comments on the most recent Q article on Purple Row (Rockies fan site), and there was a comment that was pretty spot on re: the difference in value between Q and Sale. Other than strikeouts, Q and Sale have pretty similar advanced numbers - whether that's judged by FIP, WAR, ERA +, etc. Where they differ is on their ability to dominate in a given game. It shouldn't be a surprise to any of us that Sale has the pure stuff to win a game by himself, and Q just doesn't have that level of stuff. With Q, you are dealing for a really, really good pitcher. Durable, consistent, and on an absurdly cheap deal. But you aren't dealing for a guy that's going to go out and steal a game for you with an 8 IP, 2 H, 14 K day. Teams are more likely to give top flight value for the guy who can go out and give you Sale's top end level of brilliance than the guy who is going to give you Q's sustained level of consistently very, very good. If there is a disconnect, IMO, that's going to be it. I would agree. There is also the mental aspect of never been a true "ace of a staff." Not that he can't be, but that doubt would also make a GM a little hesitant.

QUOTE (shipps @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 11:12 AM) Yet...but after time and deep thought I think teams will talk themselves into believing he is a number 1. I hope so. The team could use some more talent. However, as I've said before. With his contract he should still be under a reasonable contract when the team is good again. That's one less good pitcher they would need to find from the prospects.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 11:16 AM) Is Quintana really worth more to the Sox than other teams? Sox are going to waste his age 28 and age 29 seasons and endure two years of the risk of injury/loss of effectiveness just so they can have have him wrapped up cheap for one year of "maybe we'll contend, best case scenario" in 2019 and then one year of what should be an honest effort to win the AL Central. I guess it depends what the Yankees and Pirates are willing to part with, but they would really have to be lowballing the Sox to not make it worth dealing Jose Quintana. Sorry, i should have said perceived worth.

QUOTE (illinilaw08 @ Dec 30, 2016 -> 10:59 AM) Purple Row has had two articles about Q to the Rockies, so their fanbase is interested, and the Rockies front office is notoriously quiet. We know they talked to the Sox about Abreu and Frazier before the Winter Meetings, so there has been communication between the two FOs. Point here - there's been chatter, but nothing from any official capacity. I'm skeptical it will happen because of the nuances of pitching in Coors, and I think there was an Olney chat shortly after the Eaton trade that was skeptical of how Q's curve would play in Denver. But there's been at least some smoke around the Rockies and Q. I'm not worried that Hahn has overplayed his hand, and I'm not aware of any evidence that the Pirates have backed out. If there's a deal to be made, it will get done. There's no sense in giving Q away. I keep going back to the fact that he is worth more to the Sox than other teams because of the way others view him. The Sox won't trade him for less than a #1 is worth and others don't view him that way, thus no trade.