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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 08:47 PM) Yep, seemed we had to deal with Mitchell, K.Walker, Micah Johnson and Thompson hype for nearly half a decade. I give Mitchell a pass due to the nasty injury. I feel for him and what his foot will be like when he gets to 50.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 09:25 PM) The "no first ballot" was my biggest beef. Anybody who wouldn't vote for Maddux or Ripen or Henderson should have their name stricken from anything involving baseball for all of history. Agreed. There just aren't words to describe how idiotic the concept is. Edit: I could see it if there was a limit on how many they could let in per year. Some players are more deserving than others.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 08:54 PM) The problem with Q is the same one that Nats/Rizzo have with Eaton. As Sox fans and with most of us aware of even the simplest metrics like WAR, we all know the values of Eaton and Q, and can articulate arguments why Q might be worth the same or even more (rather than the 95% often-quoted) than Chris Sale. HOWEVER, if that Eaton trade blows up for the Nationals or any future trade for Q, the respective fanbases will be even more enraged because at least Chris Sale's a known quantity to nearly every baseball fan...the old, well, Dombrowski really rolled the dice and "went for it" line of thinking. When you're trading the same packages or potentially better ones for "non-star" players that aren't going to draw fans by name recognition alone, it's a dicier game for GM's. Another good example would be Shelby Miller, who was acquired partially because of "attachment/sentimental" reasons by LaRussa. When those trades go bad, they get you fired. With all that said, there will be a ton of GM's interested in Q still because they know his true value, contract, everything...and that doesn't mean we have to lower our trade expectations because of everything I just highlighted. But it's an additional factor to consider. there is no scenario where this is true. The teams trading for Q want to make the playoffs. Sale is better than Q. sale has a better chance of getting the team to the playoffs and WS. The Sox will not get the same talent in return for Q that they did for Sale.

QUOTE (ozzfest @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 06:27 PM) I don't think this is a genuine effort to rebuild. I believe they just got rid of the guys that management didnt get along with. The same thing happened with the Bulls. I don't know about that. They kept Rodman and Rose around a long time. Neither of them got along with management.

QUOTE (SpankyEaton @ Dec 2, 2016 -> 08:38 PM) I went to Another Round in Downers Grove today and met both Abbatacola and Bernstein. Bernstein is a short dude and is not that tough off the air like he is on the air, even though he still doesn't listen to you unless you interject. He didn't really want to address how to have a "good" call with him after I brought it up and probably prefers arguing with callers over the air. Abbatacola was a great guy, hope he gets Terry's spot. before he moved to the regular rotation he was hysterical. I remember one Saturday morning he did a show on which cartoon characters would make the best football team ie, Fred flintstone at qb, the kangaroo from sylvester and tweety at kicker... However, when he made the daytime rotation he just became an arrogant contrarian to make headlines and ratings. He really isn't that bad of a guy in person but he let's the "on air" persona get far too carried away,which is a shame.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 03:41 PM) Eh. We spent years believing that position player were easier to get than pitchers. That has ended up being a gigantic bust. I don't think they are necessarily easier to get. I just think limiting their options on what talent to take back isn't a wise strategy when the Sox really don't have a a surplus of talent anywhere on the field. Granted they had better pitching than hitting but I wouldn't call it dominant.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 03:35 PM) We'll see what happens with this deal. I think they screwed themselves by forcing the issue with what they need back from a Q trade. No idea if that is a part of what is taking time to develop for these other deals or not. I do still think that they have spent too much time worrying about player rankings instead of organizational fit. I see your point but still disagree. They should treat it like a draft for the future, take the best players offered. They can figure the rest out later. edit: I hope they based it on their own evaluation NOT just the "expert" rankings. On that I agree.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 03:01 PM) If you're focusing on SIERA, Carlos Rodon posted the 25th best SIERA in the majors leagues in 2016...very interesting I think it does a better job of isolating the pitcher from all other factors.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 02:51 PM) I refuse to acknowledge the Hall of Fame anymore until they vote Bonds in. It's good to see that after the cleaning out of some of the old guard voters are starting to vote with common sense. Raines most definitely deserves to be in too. I disagree on the Bonds part but whole heartedly agree on the getting rid of the old guard. The whole "no first ballot" thing drove me crazy. He either is or isn't a HOF.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 02:36 PM) FIP is a stat that takes team defense into account when evaluating a pitcher Quintana's career FIP of 3.47 is excellent He is certainly a top 20 mlb starting pitcher, no matter how you slice it If you're going with pitching stats I think SIERA is better. They are all still somewhat subjective but IMHO SIERA is the best at attempting to isolate a pitcher's performance.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 02:36 PM) Then he'd likely have another 24 no decision season or something like it and still have a metric s*** ton of value. Yeah, i think the only thing you need to worry about him is injury and with his history that's not much of a worry.

QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 02:14 PM) Nightengale tweeting that Raines is a virtual lock at this point. Congrats RockRaines! He deserves it. There were very few all around dynamic players like him.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:58 PM) Impossible to know unless whitesoxdave or rabbit can fill us in. If bucket appears you can bet it is getting close as well.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:56 PM) I think it is just fans. I think when you hear it from a team -- like the Astros -- it's BS posturing and isn't worth anything. The fans says such things and GMs parrot it when it serves their interest to do so. The industry knows. The Sox haven't received an acceptable offer ... yet. Rizzo got ripped after the Eaton trade and Hahn is dealing with the fallout of that -- nobody wants to be considered his next "victim" (and Q's lack of national reputation will almost insure that this happens). I agree. He's rarely truly dominant. And because of that he's often going to be considered the underdog in a post season mano a mano between #1s. But the guy rarely has a bad game too. It seems game after game of 7-IP, 2-ER, low whip, and a deceptive amount of Ks. And I think his numbers are going to get significantly stronger in AAAA, umm, I mean the National League. He shouldn't get a Sale return (although, again, the Pirates NEED Q while the Bosox didn't truly need Sale). But the difference is fairly minor, especially when you factor in his extra year of control. I hope you're right. i would like to see the Sox continue to build for the future. However, as I said before I think he could be leader of the rotation when the Sox are good again. i wouldn't be to disappointed if they keep him.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:50 PM) There IS an importance in the "leader of the rotation" part. Agreed. And the uncertainty about that, for example, is one significant reason Sale is more highly regarded than Q. That said, Q is top-20 starter in all of baseball material. Often, under many metrics, top 10-12. He has extreme value for anyone, especially with his contract, durability, mechanics, style of pitching, and unflappable makeup. But other than in direct #1 vs #1 style post-season match-ups, the is he a middle tier #1 or a stud #2 question means nothing to me. The #1 vs #1 playoff match-up thing is TBD. We'll see. I'd love the Pirates to advance and would love to see Q dominate. But if that was the sole measure of a pitcher's true worth, then Clayton Kershaw wouldn't be anybody's idea of a #1 would he, despite the near-unanimous belief that he's the best pitcher in baseball. i agree with everything you said. That is why this trade, or lack thereof, is a really interesting case. I'm firmly in the camp, that if the Sox don't get an outstanding prospect package offer, they should keep him. He may be worth more the the Sox than the market offers. Even the way it looks now he could be the leader of the rotation when the sox are good again.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:49 PM) I'm not sure we see Giolito in 2017, but I am confident that when we see him on the Sox it'll be a thing to behold. I agree. I think his floor is a good mid-rotation starter.

QUOTE (CyAcosta41 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:41 PM) Agreed! The only time those designations mean anything is Opening Day and in the playoffs. Throughout the season, you match-up with the other team's starters based on whose number is called for that given day. Q is dissed regularly because he doesn't have eye-popping pure stuff. That said, his stuff is far better than most casual observers realize AND his results speak for themselves. By virtually every metric he is unquestionably a Top-20 starter in all of baseball. Given that, on many, many teams, he's going to be the statistically accomplished "best starter" on that staff. And he's been that way for 4 years now, pitching under an insanely below market contract, and with a track record that suggests absolutely minimal risk going forward (for a human being that does something than an arm isn't anatomically designed to do). Any sane GM (posturing aside and under the influence of truth serum) will look at Q as a Top 20 in baseball. Period. Calling him a #1 or #2 matters little, other than providing fodder for the talking heads. Is he a classic #1 in the way most people think of a #1. No, but who cares? In performance he certainly is. He looks like a #2 ... he performs like a middle of the pack #1. His off-the-chart dominant games are rare -- a couple of out and out gems each season. But his dog-games are every bit as rare too. And all of the extras he brings to a team have significant value aside. Love Q. Every GM would love him as a top performer on ANY staff in baseball. Who cares what fans think. Hahn knows his value. He's tradeable, if another GM will pay that value. Otherwise, you wait until someone does. And someone will. The problem is, I don't think it's just fans. I think others around the MLB have similar doubts which is why an offer acceptable to the Sox hasn't materialized. The lack of dominance i think plays a role in that perception.

QUOTE (flavum @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 12:34 PM) Interesting Manny Ramirez is at 34%, considering he failed tests after testing became a thing. I think he belongs based on being a great hitter--even though he'll probably not get in. My ballot would be: Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Guerrero, McGriff, Mussina, Raines, Ramirez, Rodriguez, Schilling Everyone else fall short for me. I could clean this ballot up in one year. You have 4 "PED" guys and Raines with the cocaine stigma on your list. It will be interesting to see how the writers treat them. I think the only reason Raines hasn't made it is the cocaine issues.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:28 PM) He was overshadowed by Sale playing on a mediocre team. He was the Ben Zobrist of pitching. Guys get lost in the shuffle. Even here were people know more than the average, when there was talk about Zobrist, some thought he would make a good reserve. The guy put up 8.6, 3.8, 6.3 ,5.8, 5.0, 5.5 WAR seasons in a 6 year stretch. He was virtually unknown to be one of the best players in the game. When you thought of best players, he wouldn't come to mind, just like anyone who doesn't follow the White Sox doesn't really think of Jose Quintana when they think about the better pitchers in the game. Agreed. It's the classic scout versus numbers player as well. The numbers show he is one of the best. Scouts will wonder if he has the mental makeup and stuff to be the leader of the rotation.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:26 PM) True that, hommie. One more reason to keep rooting for Q, with or without the Sox. Happy holidays, by the way. i always like to root for the underdog or forgotten. Happy Holidays to you as well. Celebrate well!

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 11:14 AM) I too, am interested to see where Giolito falls on top prospect lists when they're updated. My guess is somewhere between 10-20, and I expect Lopez to be just behind him. I think Lopez still profiles as a starting pitcher, and the Sox must believe that too. As Jerksticks said, watch the highlights of his 11k game. Wow he looks nasty. I think Giolito will be fine. He needs some consistency. Coop is the right guy to work with him. I expect him up in June, and while he'll still have some lumps, I think he'll flash his ace upside. Here is to hoping his FB is up in the high 90s to start the year in AAA. If you watch highlights from him last year, he doesn't use his legs or core very much. Its all arm. I think the Sox will work with him on that. Personally, I think it's the other way around. He uses a little too much drop and drive to engage the legs. However, this also lowers all of the angles for a big guy and makes it more difficult to command the pitches. Other than that he has a good deal of the "classic" hard thrower mechanics.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 21, 2016 -> 01:12 PM) I'm so tired of hearing that Quintana is a number 2. All the MLBN pundants were spewing that crap just now. I think you'll keep hearing it until he actually leads a rotation. Not that I agree but until he shows it. It's just not common for a guy to be an MiLB FA and perform the way he has. He has never had the hype in his career.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 12:16 PM) The Red Sox aren't trading for another starter so it's really all moot. yeah, they just traded one away to stay below the salary tax. the 4 they have should be enough. The questions would change if one goes down before the All-star break and they are playing well. not that I wish the misfortune of injury on anyone, although that very scenario does keep bread on the table for my family.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 11:57 AM) They tried to acquire Q at the deadline last year from all reports. You've underrated Quintana alot in this thread though, so its not surprising with your posts. I don't think I've underrated at all. I think he is a TOR pitcher and is more consistent than most in the league. almost every team would love to have him. In fact, if i were the Sox FO, I would have traded Sale before Q as well. But that's because Sale is better and would bring more on the open market. Quintana would bring a very good prospect package in any trade. I think I agreed in another post that he is a top 10 pitcher in the AL which I do think so. My only point is that he just isn't as good as Sale and wouldn't bring back as much in a trade.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Dec 20, 2016 -> 11:46 AM) Even still, he has an additional season of cheap control, which puts his value right on par with Sale. If the length of contract and money were equal, yes Sale is a better pitcher. But Quintana on a 4 year, $38 million contract is a steal for any team Not for the price that Sale brought. The team that trades for him is going to expect the production that makes the prospects worth the trade. He just won't bring back the prospects that Sale did. there is a reason that Boston wanted Sale not Quintana in the deal. Quintana is a very good valuable pitcher. regardless, of contract (it does drive his value up) he will not bring the prospects that Sale did and you are going to be disappointed if you expect that.