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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 07:55 PM) So essentially the worst case scenario is their hitters (Cubs) still brought valuable pieces back. On the other hand, you could look at injuries to Rauch, Stumm, Biddle, Barcelo, Wright, Parque, etc., and argue the best collection of pitching prospects in the game 15 years took a pretty huge hit. Ginter was overhyped, another big name that comes to mind. Sirotka and Baldwin went down as well, although they came earlier, along with Snyder. Buehrle, Fogg, Garland and Kip Wells were the only ones to have long/er starting careers. That's a huge swath of talent that was basically turned into Todd Ritchie and Damaso Marte. Were it not for trading position prospects for Garcia and lucking out with Contreras for Loiaza, they would have been screwed. The two best since then, McCarthy and Hudson, also eventually went down. So all that...TJS risk and especially labrum/shoulder issues, are what make those 60's equal 55's. If not for the blip up in reliever values, you could even argue 60=52.5, and also for the fact it's been impossible to pry young hitting prospects loose this offseason after the Sale trade and the Chapman/Miller deals at the deadline. Or you can argue the White Sox in recent years have done an excellent job by and large keeping pitchers healthy compared to other orgs. This is why collecting pitchers is the way to go. JR will never pony up 200 million dollars for a couple of pitchers if the Sox get all hitters and need to buy pitching later. He would be inclined to pay for hitters as he did with joey Belle when the Sox signed him to that (at the time) massive deal.

QUOTE (Baron @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 06:16 PM) I dont like that deal for the Rays. Think they sold Forsythe a little short. TOR potential pitchers always trump second basemen.

QUOTE (Brian @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 10:20 AM) Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi Wasn't he the last jedi the last go around in episode IV?

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 09:46 AM) Law's evaluations of bats have been as good as any publication writer over the internet age. He's outstanding. If I like a guy (on the position side) and then I hear Law likes him, I'll dive in and usually come out looking good. Law's evaluations of pitchers is almost like punching in numbers into a system. Under 6'1"? Under 185? Automatic reliever. 6'3"+ but very thin frame? Automatic reliever. Throws hard with bad mechanics? Automatic reliever. Law wants every pitcher to be 6'4" 215 lbs with perfect mechanics. I just don't think mechanics are as predictable as Law's writeups would give credence to. It's not even like he would argue that but he just bets on the workhorse bodies and does his presumptuous, writing-off of any guy who doesn't apply. Frankly, it's not the worst strategy given the tough task that Law has to do but at the same time, he knows some of these unconventional deliver/smaller body guys are going to work out and they're going to keep making him like bad (See Sale, See Carlos Martinez, Hopefully see Reynaldo Lopez). With the unpredictability of pitching, he will be right more than wrong with this system. That's why he does it.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jan 22, 2017 -> 07:32 PM) What a huge douche he was. No doubt. He was fun to drink with as long as you didn't take him seriously.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Jan 22, 2017 -> 07:25 PM) RIP and condolences to all friends and family of both players. No amount of money can help a person make a rational decision under the influence of alcohol. It is up to the individual to make the right choices in life. Money from the MLB would not have prevented Marte from driving too fast or Ventura from drinking then driving. In the end it was poor decision making by these men that led to their deaths. The best people can hope for is that others will learn from the mistakes of Marte, Ventura and Fernandez to help prevent things like this from happening in the future. Yes. The best they can do is try to educate them and let them live their lives and hopefully learn from others mistakes. forcing more rules and regulations is rarely the right answer.

QUOTE (Boogua @ Jan 22, 2017 -> 07:10 PM) Sucks for Losman. I'm convinced the Packers will never have a bad QB. When I worked for them we had Don "Majik man" Majkowski. They have had bad QB's.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Jan 22, 2017 -> 06:54 PM) This thread desperately needs a new credible rumor to discuss or a merciful death. Talk about NASCAR! The combined Q threads remind me of a NASCAR race. Lots of going in circles with a few crashes and fires along the way.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jan 20, 2017 -> 02:14 PM) First of all - Martes+Tucker+Reed+Fischer does not equal Martes+Tucker+Paulino+ 2 absolute question marks. Paulino + 2 lottery ticket types doesn't equal Reed and Fischer. Second of all - how in god's green earth do you know how the Astros value Archer vs. Q? Archer, by the way, is controlled for an additional year at ~$2M less on AAV basis. I personally like Q more than Archer, but I am not an unbiased bystander, and until 2017, their numbers were pretty similar in the previous 3 seasons. I don't think it is too wildly farfetched to think that the Astros value Archer higher than Q, and maybe my a sizable margin. Let's not forget that Archer was the AL start in the ASG in 2015, and to that point was widely considered one of the top RHP in the game. You throw around way too many things like they're fact when you're just speculating. It is beyond annoying. Maybe RH is still trying to Bregman - who knows? You certainly don't. So stop acting like its gospel. I think that a Martes, Tucker, Reed and Fischer package hasn't been offeed, because if it had, those dude would be White Sox. And why do I think that? Because on a player for player basis, that trade rivals the Sale deal and bests the Eaton deal, which are actual fact. I should have just stopped typing and agreed with this post. I wish I would have taken keyboarding in high school. Is that course even offered anymore? I would imagine kids don't need it anymore.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 20, 2017 -> 01:59 PM) "Absolutely nothing"? Not the fact that comparable deal for an inferior pitcher was turned down by the Rays? Might want to reconsider your words because to me there is strong indication that the Astros are willing to include almost any combination of minor league talent. The issue is Hahn is probably still pestering them over Musgrove and Bregman, because he apparently hasn't gotten the message that those guys aren't on the move. First off, he is not a drastically inferior pitcher. Over the last 3 years they have been pretty similar, with Q getting an edge and had a better year last year. You are guessing that RH/KW are still asking for one of the MLB pieces. So if the Rays turned down the deal and the sox did as well, this probably indicated more than anything that Houston just isn't willing to sell the farm for these pitchers. It may change but right now they aren't inclined to do so.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jan 20, 2017 -> 01:45 PM) Regarding the bolded, there is absolutely nothing out there that backs up this logic. I agree. If that was offered, I think RH/KW would have taken it.

QUOTE (steveno89 @ Jan 20, 2017 -> 09:25 AM) I think fans do need mentally prepare for Quintana to be on our roster opening day The stove seems to have considerably cooled as of late, and the likelihood he gets dealt before spring training is getting slimmer and slimmer, which is ok. I've been saying this since the Eaton trade. Teams aren't ready to give up another blockbuster deal. Honestly, it's difficult to imagine 3 blockbuster deals in one off season. There just aren't that many teams willing to do this type of deal at the same time.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 20, 2017 -> 07:07 AM) I just find it hard to believe that in this market where there are literally no other TOR alternatives that offers wouldn't be strong. We all say we don't want Hahn to accept a crappy offer, but why do we think teams would allow one of their competitors to get Quintana on the cheap? For example, if the Pirates' best offer was Glasnow, Hayes, & Diaz, do you honestly think the Astros & Braves would stand pat and not top that? The only way we're going to get a crappy offer is if the market is significantly constrained from the buyer's side and demand just isn't there. And that's simply not the case based on everything we know about interest in Q. My concern is that Hahn will wait for the perfect offer, which may or not never happen by. Waiting doesn't guarantee s***, but it does put our most important asset at risk of losing signicant value from a combination of factors including injury, underperformance, & less favorable market conditions. It also pushes back this rebuild most likely due delaying the development time for whatever prospects are acquired and could greatly impact our draft position next year that has some elite talents at the top. Long story short, I simply don't see the potential reward from holding Quintana until July (or longer) worth the inherent risk and opportunity costs. Well the lack of movement of any players right now would make one think there are no good offers.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 20, 2017 -> 05:48 AM) Of all the things in a Quintana deal, the surest thing is Q. If you are worried not trading him will screw everything up, you should be more worried trading him asap and just taking what they can get, will screw everything up. All the guys the Wox received for Sale and Eaton look great on paper, but as of now we really don't know if any of them can really play, let alone as well as Sale or Eaton. No doubt. They can't trade him for less than his value. It will hurt the team in the long run.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jan 19, 2017 -> 01:51 PM) Interesting Glasnow news, since he is related to Q News: Black Beard’s Delight: Hey ENO! I read an interesting article on Tyler Glasnow this week. He is shortening his delivery and the Pirates are giving him his 2 seam back. Mainly just wanted to share that with you, but does that improve your outlook on him? 12:31 Eno Sarris: If he can throw the two-seam to the middle of the plate because he has confidence in the movement, maybe one or both combined will help his command. He would take a huge leap forward if he could just get ahead more often because the curve is great. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/eno-sarris-...all-chat-11917/ This thought process is odd. The 2 seamer has more movement and is more difficult to control than in 4 seasmer, in general. Teams usually take away the 2 seamer from pitchers with poor control. Maybe he is just more comfortable with the 2 seamer and it will help, but the thought process is backwards.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 19, 2017 -> 12:29 PM) No way. On top of those two, they'd have to trade Lawrie, Jones, Cabrera, Abreu, Rodon, and Gonzalez, and they'd still probably lose only 110 games. Not to mention Ventura is no longer the manager. That is worth at least 10 wins there.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jan 18, 2017 -> 06:55 PM) Andruw Jones and Omar Vizquel have to have legit shots. Andruw Jones while very good was never really dominant. I don't think so. Vizquel maybe but borderline.

QUOTE (Sox-35th @ Jan 18, 2017 -> 06:15 PM) Yeah, but the piece you bolded is nonsense and highly unlikely to happen. I agree. That is why I responded to the poster's idea that they shouldn't wait to trade Q because if Giolito, Kopech and Lopez could blow out their arms and keeping Q would be wasteful.

QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Jan 18, 2017 -> 05:41 PM) Unless you have a crystal ball, you cannot say with absolute certainty he will be a good pitcher when he's 29. John Danks is a prime example. Hell, Giolito, Kopeck, and/or Lopez could all blow their arms out over the course of the next 2 years. Keeping Quintana to be an anchor in the rotation in anticipation for *if* the Sox can compete come 2019-20 is just a bad idea. Sox need to be focusing on acquiring as much talent as they can either by trade or draft. You can't keep players on the off-chance they might help you compete before their contract runs out. The only players I would say have an exception regarding this is Anderson and Rodon because both are under team control for a very long time. If this is the case, then all the more reason to keep Q. If the others blow out their arms the sox will need Q if they are going to be any good in 2 years.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 18, 2017 -> 08:14 AM) That's the problem though, he's only worth one or two years as a TOR starter to us based on our projected competive window. While I'm not suggesting they settle for a crap offer, you don't need multiple all-stars to come out ahead. If we end up with even one 3 WAR per year player that can provide that value over the course of five years when we'll actually be competive, we are definitely better off. That's why holding Quintana through the rebuild in hopes he can be part of our next competive team makes no sense. I get it. This is where RH/KW need to determine the value of Q vs. the prospect package. Also, it does make sense to keep Q if the deal isn't what they like. If you project them to have a shot at the WS during his contract, he would become one less "rental' they may need to trade prospects for. It may save them talent in the long run because they would need to make the deadline deal. This is all predicated on what deal is currently offered. I have no issues with trading him but there is value in keeping him as well.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 18, 2017 -> 12:03 AM) When will the team be good again if we don't move Quintana? How much control will we have over him at that time? If their plan works in 3 years which means they will have him for at least 2, if he doesn't sign another contract. As people have stated here he is a very good pitcher. Pitchers like him are difficult to find. If they don't receive a really good offer for him, it doesn't make sense to trade him. He signed a team friendly deal and may stick around longer. They shouldn't trade him for less than what he is worth to the sox as a TOR pitcher.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Jan 17, 2017 -> 10:43 AM) I've seen him do that for a couple years now in drills... someone more informed will have more insight but I suspect it's a drill to build drive towards the plate. Never seen it that pronounced thou. Crazy. I've seen many people use it. i'm not a fan of it as it tries to teach how to throw too hard and thus really put a great deal of strain on the UCL while pitching. Not a fan of the kids attitude of trying to throw that hard. Really sets him up for injuries in the future.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 17, 2017 -> 09:51 PM) Jose Quintana the pitcher is a commodity and like any commodity he is worth what the market will pay. If Coppopela, Luhnow, Huntington and Cashman are all not willing to meet Hahn's price then Hahn's price is too high. That is how a market works. I dont know how much more this has to be explained. Compromise is an essential part of doing business and it is not shameful for the White Sox to meet a potential buyer somewhere in the middle for Quintana. Right now appears clear that Hahn is refusing to budge from outrageous demands, demands that wont be met now nor at the deadline nor next offseason. The risk of keeping Quintana for even spring training far outweighs any benefit. The deadline is not magic. It will not miraculously boost Quintana's value. Its time for the Sox to quit dipping their toes in the pool and get on with the rebuild. Hahn has gone through his salesmanship and assembled interested parties, take the best offer and move on to dealing Frazier, Robertson and (if possible) Melky. That is what is best for the White Sox now. The first part is exactly right. i disagree with the second part. Q will still be under contract when the team is good again. If he is still around, the Sox will have a variety of pitchers to try to build a great pitching staff, then they can buy hitters because all of the pitchers will be at a very low cost.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 16, 2017 -> 03:10 PM) Let's clear something up: trading Rodon is not idiotic. If someone offered you significantly more value than he is worth, you'd jump on it in a second. The Diamondbacks gave up Dansby Swanson and Endar Inciarte for Shelby Miller. I'd certainly take those two for Rodon right now. Trading him for what the normal market would pay for him right now, that's a little closer to idiotic, but I wouldn't say it would be totally idiotic. I don't think so. Only because, if he continues to improve he will be worth more later. Unless you think his performance has reached it's peak.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jan 16, 2017 -> 01:36 PM) Luhnow is only an idiot if he doesn't end up with Q. As it stands he is just a GM trying to get a great piece at his price, notice that no other team has yet so outbid HOU that they are out. I don't know. They are very similar pitchers and Gray will be cheaper for the next couple of years. If the asking price is less than Q, it could be a smart deal. Provided they are confident in his recovery from injuries. That may make him an even cheaper get in regards to prospects.