ptatc

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 6, 2011 -> 12:37 AM) He's got a lot of talent. Whether the Sox or he can do anything with that talent is yet to be seen, but this is far from a bad draft choice. Perhaps not the best, but most definitely not the worst. I'm excited to have him start playing. I saw him play last year year in Alaska. They did a double header on July 4th starting at 9pm so it's dark enough by 1am to do fireworks. He impressed me with his athleticism in the outfield, made a couple of great plays. I don't recall much about his hitting.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 3, 2011 -> 04:26 PM) Pathetic offensive performance today. I can't believe we benched our best player twice in last four games just to get Dunn at bats. Dunn is killing us this season! I think his wrist is bothering him and they just aren't saying anything. His swing looked a little funky the other day.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 24, 2011 -> 05:53 PM) Thanks to Mr.'s Selig and others...can you honestly say with 100% confidence that you can rule them out? Don't forget to blame the players association. Selig started drug testing in the minors long before the players union agreed to it. He isn't innocent by any stretch but he tried and it took congress to get the MLB players to agree to it. There will also never be a blood test due to the union unless congress acts again. HGH will continue to be used by the players who can afford it. It takes a greater quantity and frequency to achieve the results with HGH as opposed to anabolics.

QUOTE (Real @ Jun 24, 2011 -> 03:08 PM) There are so many different types of steroids now than can be either masked partially or fully in urine testing, not to mention all the other designer PEDs available that are only detectable via blood like EPO and HGH which require stored blood and retesting to compare samples due to how they work I've done some research on this... because it's rampant in Boxing, which is my favorite sport... But it's not accurate to use the eye test in terms of physique to claim someone is or isnt juicing... It's more accurate to take age and production into consideration, but that isn't enough to make accusations either I don't think Paulie is juicing for the record, and this thread wasnt meant to be some sort of devil's advocate piece either It's not only the type but also how you train when taking them. You can train for power and bulk up which is what you see with hitter and a certain golfer who is now having difficulty staying healthy. You can also train for speed and endurance. One of the primary traits of PEDS is to help you recover faster from any type of workout. This is why relief pitchers in baseball have been caught alot. Cyclists also use extensively in this manner.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 10:30 AM) I don't think KW's or Ozzie's egos would ever allow that. They've obviously buried the hatchet (mainly KW and Frank). But I don't believe for a second there's not some animosity between the two. KW would never go for Frank of all people coming in here and doing something his guy couldn't do. Personally, I don't think Thomas would be a good hitting coach froma technique stand point. If only seen him, Hank aaron and Roberto Clemente use the front foot hitting style where they lifted the rear foot. I'm also not sure he can teach the patience. However, maybe he teach overall philosophy.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 20, 2011 -> 09:16 AM) As long as Hawk Harrelson is remembered, no one else will ever win the "Worst Sox GM Ever" game. Moving Fisk to the outfield was brilliant!

QUOTE (bulokis @ Jun 19, 2011 -> 10:31 PM) Who was that jeff Marquez pitching for the yanks? Is that our Jeff marquez from the swish trade? Yes, the Yankees claimed him when the Sox sent him to the minors.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 04:39 PM) You sound like a great teacher and dad. But what do u do when the parents come calling when Johnny or Jane got a B? I know a guy who taught one course at the college here and he was a tough grader and got flooded with calls from parents! At the university level. It was like, 'my daughter has all As and you gave her a B!' I teach in a Doctoral level PT program. I have students who have never received a B even through their undergrad. One graduate still won't talk to me because I gave her the only B she received in her life. I haven't had parents call me. I have had many State Senator and Representatives call me to wonder why I student he recommended didn't get into the program.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 10:40 PM) At least you are not one of those parents who goes to the teacher to b**** when their precious youngster gets a B. No wonder anybody with a brain refuses to be a teacher with overzealous parents of today. I still think a B can be a decent grade. I'd give anything for the Sox to deserve a B right now. I still think our team should be quicker with the trigger - fire Ozzie and KW now! Our team has totally underacheved with this payroll. Hudson kicking our ass tonight is another huge embarrassment since we gave him away. Heck no. Just like with everything else, you need to deal with it. If there are problems you need to ask and find out what needs to be done and do it. I teach the kids and my students that there is no reason not to ask. If you don't ask, then it is your own fault.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 10:54 PM) Isn't part of being a parent knowing what your child is capable of? For some, Bs are dissappointments, and could show a lack of effort and/or concentration. For some other kids, getting B's is actually quite an accomplishment. Not everyone's intellect is equal. I think looking at the Sox, we have been looking for As and B pluses but most of the time get Bs or B minuses or Cs. You are correct, whether the Sox win 100 or lose 100, its not really going to change anyone's life too much, but as fans which is short for fanatics, winning is important or we probably wouldn't be paying attention or posting on message boards. KW and Ozzie need more As. They have been given the means to accomplish it, and don't get it done too often. This is true. If the child has an established record of grades, there is no reason not to expect it to continue. Whether that record is As, Bs or Cs. Part of it is also expectations. You can instill in the children what they need to do and see how they perform when they work hard. If you truly think they have been given the means to accomplish it then you need to assign the cause. Was the team built well (KW), are they put in a good postion to maximize the winning (Ozzie) or are the players underperforming. To me it's alomost always the players underperforming. Neither KW nor Ozzie can do much with Dunn or Rios. Dunn has shown to be consistent except this year, Rios is inconsistent. One was a good pickup for KW one wasn't. I think both KW and Ozzie do a good job. Maybe not the best but good. Given the history of how JR likes to hire inexperienced management, I'm just not willing to pull the trigger on either too quickly. There are alot worse out there.

QUOTE (T R U @ Jun 18, 2011 -> 03:01 AM) How good would this team be? 1. Lillibridge LF 2. Ramirez SS 3. Quentin RF 4. Konerko 1B 5. Young CF 6. Allen DH 7. Pierzynski C 8. Beckham 2B 9. Morel 3B 1. Buehrle 2. Danks 3. Floyd 4. Hudson 5. Gio CL Santos That's alot of strikeouts in the 5-6 places. Teams would IBB konerko every chance they got.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 02:11 PM) Yeah I hope you don't give the kiddies too much grief for getting a B. A 'B' is not so bad. They know the expectations and what they are capable of. There are rewards for A's and less so for B's. But like was stated before there are times in life when excellence is expected and other where it's fun. Excelling in school (or not) is a life changer. Whether the Sox have a good team and miss the playoffs is not.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 02:07 PM) You're seriously using a nickname as a reason? And now you're changing from "decent" to "good". With Dayan's offensive potential, if he provides decent defense with a cannon arm that will be sufficient I haven't seen him play much in the outfield. however, it sounds like we're looking at Carlos Lee part 2. A guy converted to the outfield because he couldn't play third. He'll hit alot of HR's, have a great arm but drive use crazy running around in the outfield.

QUOTE (Disco72 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 12:13 PM) Hibbard - I appreciate your post and the sentiments behind it. For a long time, I've been in agreement with you. The 70s and 80s were so bad...so many years with no hope of winning, that I've enjoying that every Spring Training recently, the Sox have had a legitimate chance to win. However, the rules of the game have changed. Baseball economics now give the Sox a decided advantage within the division, and the increase in payroll shows that the Sox can spend more than anyone else. Exactly - with a higher payroll in a medicore division, there just haven't been enough division winners. Larry Himes was fired because JR thought he couldn't get the Sox to "Point C." Manual was fired because his teams were always above average but never consistent winners. Milkman shows that Ozzie, aside from 2005, hasn't been any better than Manual. When the Sox won in 2000, then fell short the next couple of years, it was frustrating. KW made a change (Manual to Ozzie). Now, the Sox are once again falling just short most years. Its incredibly tiresome. I like Ozzie, but its time for a change - for someone that can get the Sox back to "Point C." By this philosophy, do they get extra credit for winning a world series with a low payroll? If payroll is a dependent variable in the equation than there should be more credit early in the tenure of KW and Ozzie.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 12:40 PM) You're the type of person people would love to work for. You want results. But not maximum results. Long as you kinda just get by. That's not a terrible thing. Nobody would want to work for me. I demand maximum results. Just getting by doesn't cut it for me. That's kinda why I am the way I am. I have a job that demands the maximum. I think this maybe one of our differences as well. Baseball is a past time and for fun. I treat it a whole lot different than life. I expect a whole lot more from my kids (B's are a disappointment for grades) and from my students in the classroom as well as patients in the clinic. Baseball is a diversion from life and for fun.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 11:39 AM) Except we're not winning. I don't look at 84 wins and no playoffs as "winning." Your ass is sitting at home in October just like the Pirates and Royals who may have won 65 games. It's all the same to me. that's fine if you gauge the entire season by playoffs only. I look at winning games over the long run. Since KW has been in charge, I think the average season total wins is 86 or so. I think that is pretty good not great but good.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 11:38 AM) He's put together good, but not close to great teams. With our increased payroll since 2005, I would think that more GMs than not would be able to get us into the playoffs more than once in the next 5 years. I think a big reason for the frustration with KW is how bleak the future looks for this organization due to the poor trades, awful farm system, and bloated contracts. If we had a lot of money coming off the books this year with the current core we have and a solid farm system, I doubt people would be calling for KW's head as much. i agree with everything here except the future part. KW always seems to find good players somewhere. The only bloated contract I see is Peavy's and that's only because he always seems to be injured. Rios has been good/bad every other year so you can include that but that's about it.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 10:53 AM) Next time Kenny Williams wins a trade, it will be the first time since the Quentin one. He's on a very, very bad stretch right now and that's why so many people are frustrated with him. NO ONE blames Kenny for signing Dunn. It was a great move and a great deal for the Sox...it just hasn't panned out so far. You can't say that the trade Kenny has failed with were "great deals" at the time. Can you say that he has put together good teams that have consistently been in contention for the playoffs? This is my criteria for a good GM. This of course is subjective. Instead of looking at each individual transaction (trade, FA signing etc.) can he build overall good teams? I really don't care overall how he builds the team as long as he can build a good team. does his success in getting Rameirez and possibly Viciedo (we still don't know how successful he will be in the majors), negate his "lack of winning trades." It's fun to discuss the individual transactions but that isn't the important overall outcome. Winning is.

QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 09:31 AM) Awesome! And to ptatc, the total wins aren't as important as division titles. This is where we disagree. The only thing a team can control is their own wins. I prefer the consistent team that wins as opposed to the division title view. For example, would you rather have the marlins situation or the Sox. The Sox are consistent good but only win the WS once. But I enjoy seeing them win and have a good team regularly. The Marlins on the other hand have won 2 WS but have been really bad in others. It is only a matter of what you want to see. I understand your view and what you want but I prefer the consistently good team as opposed to the Marlins version.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 09:49 AM) I have no idea what really goes on in the front office, but Hahn and Kenny are not of the same baseball philosophy. Until Hahn gets a chance to run his own team, I wouldn't be to sure of that.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 01:08 AM) Please sign...haha. Seriously, this is too much. Now before someone suggests Joe McEwing, keep in mind that 1) he comes from the LaRussa school of managing (with its pros and cons) and can we honestly say that he's played an integral role in the development of any of our players? Maybe he has...I don't follow the minors as much as some here, would like to be enlightened. Dave Martinez is a former Sox RFer, very popular around the game, well-spoken and good with the media and ladies (cue jokes about stealing Sandberg's wife), a disciple of one of the 3 best (and creative) managers in the game in Joe Maddon, and he comes from a system where players are drafted and developed....instead of constantly mixing in FA talent and 25% roster changeover every offseason via trade. He also fits with the Sox mode of being on the cutting edge in minority hiring and promotion, the Sox having already baptized Ozzie, KW and Kim Ng in key leadership positions. Just say no to Joey Cora!!! If Martinez won't take the position because it's the middle of the season, deferring to an off-season interview opportunity, then you go to Omar Vizquel as player manager, Sandy Alomar, Jr., Robin Ventura or Jack McDowell and offer them the job for the remainder of the season. You'd keep Cooper/Baines (not sure exactly why, just hate the idea of making him the scapegoat for some reason) in place and then let those guys name their own hitting coach. I don't think Ventura would do it, out of respect to Ozzie, but McDowell might be crazy enough to try. But seriously, in Hahn's shoes, he should go with Omar Vizquel for the rest of the year and roll the dice. Cooper came to mind as well, but for the White Sox fanbase to really get back behind this team, it needs to be someone connected to Sox history or Chicago who's NOT Cora, Buddy Bell or Walker. If those four guys wouldn't do it, I'd also consider offering the position to Steve Stone. I'd much rather go down this "all in" season with Stone Pony, Dave Martinez or Omar Vizquel than Ozzie making the decisions. Ventura (as hitting coach), McDowell (bench coach) and Alomar, Jr. (bench coach), would be 4-6. Fisk, #7. Tony Pena (former catcher and Royals' manager, not reliever) #8. I would throw Jake Peavy's name into the mix but he would probably get hurt again and nobody would listen to him. You have some good ideas in there and some not worth mentioning. McDowell and Fisk are too big of a**holes and no one would listen to them. Ventura is such a quiet guy I'm not sure how effective he would be. He is more the GM type in my opinion. Hahn has learned under Williams so if Cora is out due to the Ozzie influence, Hahn should be out as well. If there are changes, I do like the Martinez, Alomar Jr. They imoressed me as good "coach types" in my dealings with them.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Jun 17, 2011 -> 09:01 AM) I wonder how many fans on this board were alive during the 70s and 80s when the White Sox won 1 division title in 20 years and usually finished in 3rd or 4th place with 70 something wins. Of the ones that were alive, I wonder if they can really get back in touch with what it felt like to be a fan of this team during that era, and put it in context. Do people realize the same White Sox organization has averaged 84 wins per season over the past 21 years, and 86 wins under the KW/OG regime? We're basically tied fourth in total wins since 1990 in the AL, behind New York, Boston and Oakland (Cleveland is about even with us, slightly ahead for now). During the OG era, I think we're 5th overall. During the past three "disappointing" years, we've averaged a "disappointing" 85 wins. Yes, our payroll has increased. Yes, the expectations have been higher recently. Yes, there have been some depressing results at times, particularly in our own division. Is it because we are agonizingly close? I hope that's the conclusion. Because if it's not, I have news for you: this is not a s*** organization. This organization is one of the best in the American League, year in and year out. You'd never know it from reading this board, though. It is astounding to me that there is absolutely no faith and no patience in this organization, this coach and this general manager. We've won 88+ games in 4 of the past six seasons. How many other teams have won 88+ games in four of the past six seasons? Four: Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, Phillies. That's it. Not your precious Twins, not the big-spending, bumbling big-market Mets, not the Dodgers of lore, not the Cubs. 25 of 30 teams haven't done it. The White Sox have. And yet, everyone is seemingly as frustrated as if they have waited 20 years for a divisional title. This team has won a World Series recently, under this management's watch, and yet you would never know it from the faithlessness around here. Really, what gives? Sure, you can blather on about Guillen's lack of in-game managerial skills while conveniently overlooking his other intangibles (his ability to deflect media heat from his players, his ability to keep his team motivated (even allegedly cantankerous ones like AJP and Jurassic Carl), his ability to be hands-off when nobody would dare notice it. You can talk about KW's missed opportunities and poor trades and acquisitions, and ignore the stability, identity and pride he has provided. I wonder if people even recall how controversial the Konerko re-signing was around here. You need to look no further than 12 miles north if you want to know how difficult it is to win in this game consistently, even with a large payroll. Whether or not you believe in curses, that team has fielded young talent, experienced managers, veteran leaders. They can't win s*** to save their damned lives. I can cite 5 more examples of teams who spent it all seemingly correctly and can't win s*** anyway (The Mets come to mind, among others). The 2011 White Sox may have been disappointing thus far, but I can't really see them playing much worse, and I can't pin this on the organization, nor have I lost faith or patience. I will not blame OG/KW for Adam Dunn and Alex Rios having the WORST slumps of their respective careers, for Peavy's unforeseen injury problems, for Beckham turning from can't miss to Crede-lite, for Juan Pierre forgetting how to field. I will not blame this organization for a host of veteran relievers blowing the f*** up. I will not blame this organization for John Danks' uncharacteristic, bewildering numbers. Nearly everything has gone wrong at times, and we are 33-37 and 5.5 out. This is still a very talented team that's representative of a very good organization. I really wish other people believed that too. I agree with you. I think this is a good organization in the overall picture. This should be a good discussion as many here micromanage and don't always see the big picture, wins. A team can only control their games and their wins. Even though the team has done well over the past number of years combined, your going to get the "what have they done the past 3 , 2 or 1 years." comments from many. That is a valid point but again individual things happen in a given year that is beyond the control of the team. We were weak in offense last year. The team went out and got one of the most consistent offensive production players in recent memory (Dunn, although that style of play still drives me crazy). He of course has the worst year of his career, probably due to the change in leagues, position and added pressure. I still think the plan was good but it just hasn't worked out so far. It is a good organization. It wins more than most teams.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 03:24 PM) I think he's a mid .700's OPS 3b once he fully develops/adapts, and may cross .800 a couple times given the park he's playing in. This would be impossible. I think many people have proven on this board that it is impossible to improve once you've made it to the majors. You are are what you are once you begin your career, unless you start out well then you will only regress.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jun 16, 2011 -> 01:46 AM) I'm still excited about Trayce Thompson. He's not going to be a Stanton-esque prospect, but there is a lot to like about him, notably his plate discipline and raw power. If you have those, you can survive striking out 150+ times a season...Adam Dunn has made a living off of it. Mitchell leaves me much less excited. He seems to have a decent eye at the plate, but I don't know how good his bat control is, I don't think his power is going to be anything substantial, and his speed may ultimately end up worse than originally projected due to the Achilles injury. Has there been a recent injury or do you mean the tendon tear that caused him to miss the season? If you are referring to the one that caused him to miss a season that was a tear of the posterior tibialis tendon. I'm not saying this to be an a** but the injuries would effect his future differently. An achilles injury could really effect his speed. The posterior tib injury will effect the stability of his foot but not really effect his speed. If he has lost speed, it most likely isn't due to the tendon injury. Unless it is a fear issue, that could be.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jun 14, 2011 -> 09:37 AM) IMO, it has everything to do with Ozzie's desire to have a slappy, speedy guy at the top of the order. The switch to lead off hitter is a lot less difficult than Dunn's adjustment, as you only truly lead off once. This is true but players don't look at it that way. The guy who bats leadoff is only supposed to worry about getting on base and moving runners along. That is their mindset. Just like the "closers" position where people think there is no difference between facing the opposing team's best hitters in an important situation in the 7th or the 9th. In a player's mind there is a big difference. If they blow it in the 7th, the team can still come baqck in the 8th and 9th. If you blow it in the 9th, game over. This is why some hitters can't hit leadoff and some pitcher's can't close. It's a mind set of the player. I'm all for Viciedo getting a chance, he looks like he can be good if he keeps the Ks down. However you need to make sure the player that is going to the leadoff spot is mentally tough enough. I don't think Rios has the mental makeup, based on previous situations and I'm not sure Lillibridge is talented enough for a full season.