ptatc

QUOTE(sircaffey @ Dec 30, 2007 -> 08:52 PM) I say CLE will be stronger mainly due to Hafner not possibly being as bad as he was last season. They didn't lose anyone, and improved their pen. Hard to say they'll be worse. And the best that Konerko, Thome and Dye will put up is .274 30 HR's and 96 RBIs? If Hafner will improve over his poor last season whose to say that all three or at least two of three who had poor seasons won't improve. If their players can rebound from poor season why can't the Sox players?

You don't need to try to impress with your knowledge of what type of prospects (or lack thereof) there are in the minors. Anyone who has spent time watching them or working with them know that most have no chance to make it. Just stating some things I observed when I was there and how coaches worked with them. Just because someone has the tool doesn't mean it's refined and it doesn't need to be improved. A tool isn't effective if it's not used properly (OK I couldn't resist that one), You can't tell me that rookie league and A ball players have ANY tool refined.

While I agree with the premise of the comment of working on tools you don't have, this seems kind of backwards. From my times in the minors there were many guys with the tool of speed but were awful base stealers due to poor jumps, difficulty reading pitchers etc. These guys needed to work on these things and were encouraged to work on them. The purpose wasn't to rack up SB numbers but to work on the tools needed to be a good base stealer not just a guy with speed. So just because a guy has a certain tool does not mean they don't work on it at all. It's similar to a guy with a great fastball who needs to work on a breaking pitch while you may focus on the weakness you always need to improve on the strength as well.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 23, 2007 -> 11:42 AM) Someone said 80% of SoxTalk thinks KW is awful/should be fired. I'm curious what the actual numbers are. And I'm voting for mediocre, not "awful". I'm the one who said that and I'm shocked only 47% want him fired. I guess the people who want him fired are just more "vocal"

QUOTE(Steve9347 @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 05:27 PM) Anyone think the roids had something to do with this, and the HRs were a side-effect? Steriods aren't usually to blame in ligament injuries, usually more tendon injuries. Such as McGwires and Pulojols' knees and feet. Where did you get the pictures? I like those. It's a good representation of the TJ surgery. The tendon used is usually the palmaris longus, if the player has one.

QUOTE(quickman @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 09:51 PM) I realize the radio staion is not the topic of this conversation but since you brought it up I will tend to disagree. First of all, the score has more power and reach to more people than ESPN1000 could ever dream having. That in itself helps more people listen to games. As far as the personalities, I am not a huge fan of all them but please tell me how Mike North does anything different with his comments than what is on this board. KW sucked this year, HE failed miserably, and that is what Mike North says. You can disagree, and think KW did well, but for the most part, he got schooled. This puts pressure on the whitesox and KW. Quite frankly KW 's game is losing its luster and at least there are a few people who are stating that fact. Sometimes I think whitesox fans don't live in reality. We b**** and moan to each other and on this board, but if someone else says anything bad, we get upset. Its lame. I would say it's the opposite on this board. Looking at the posts, at least 80% of the people here believe KW is an awful GM and should be fired. I think I am one of the few that thinks a GM with an above .500 record and a world series win under his belt deserves a chance. Very few current GMs can match this. I don't micromanage. I don't dissect each move in a vacuum. I look at results, so far his overall results have been good. Now if he has another disasterous season........

QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 10:37 AM) A set up guy is assuming you will be winning late in games. Those funds would have been better spent on improving performance before the 8th inning Such as... What would your plan be? It's easy to attack in a vacuum and say "this guy can't help us" Trade for hitting? Trade for starting pitching? Trading for defense? I think that the relief was the greatest weakness and would be the area I would go first.

QUOTE(klaus kinski @ Dec 22, 2007 -> 10:25 AM) Linebrink was the "one guy?" Get the net Iwould agree. The bullpen was the greatest weakness they had. I don't think there were any better set up men in free agency. We weren't going to get a closer to come here to be the 8th inning guy.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 10:30 PM) Well then I guess I don't go by House's theory of mechanics. Star pupil Nolan Ryan has a totally different arm action than Prior. Here is a quote from our resident scout: And here is a picture from Prior's USC days, worse even than the pic Bureau posted: I agree. I don't like what he teaches. I look at the body before, I look at the arm. The arm should be going along for the ride as momentum is transferred from the lower body. One of the things I look at when evaluating a pitcher's mechanics is how his front foot lands. If you look at your picture he lands on his hell. This stops the momentum and creates alot of stress in the back and up into the arm. I think some of the drills they do lead to over striding which is what you see here. There are many theories about pitching mechanics. The more people you talk to the more opinions you find. Being from the medical side of things, I look at stress and where they are centered and where they are dissipated. The job of our resident scout as you call him is to project them to the major league level while mine is to fix them hopefully before an injury. It's just a different point of view.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Dec 21, 2007 -> 09:20 PM) Prior had poor mechanics even at USC, so I don't think Dusty is to blame He did not have poor mechanics if you go by House's theory of mechanics. Rothschild, the Cubs current pitching coach is a disciple from this theory of pitching made popular by House and his star pupil Nolan Ryan. Many people would say he had great mechanics and that his problem is that he had never been hurt before and had no idea how to deal with the normal aching and pain that goes along with pitching 200 MLB innings. He never really had an injury. His surgery was to clean out and tighten up the shoulder, which some thought was unnecessary. This is why the "injury" was dragged out for so long. Again my view of his mechanics are different but there are different schools of thought on this topic.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Dec 20, 2007 -> 10:24 PM) Why does everyone seemingly make fun of the towel drill? The drill does have it's purpose in teaching full extension of the arm during the throwing motion. It is made fun of in baseball because it's part of House's drills that focus on a lot "non-baseball" activities to teach pitching mechanics. Such as the football example I used earlier. It gets made fun of in the press for precisely the reason stated above. Prior has been rehabbing more than pitching and he has been seen doing these drills frequently.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Dec 19, 2007 -> 10:13 PM) And that is why it will be necessary to adjust their stats, at least in the mind of the voters, when electing these guys. They are performance enhancing, they would not have taken them just for the shrunken testicles and pimples. How could you fairly adjust stirkeouts and walks which have absolutely nothing to do with the effects of the drugs? I can see a case for many of the categories of hits and SBs but not when the hitter doesn't make contact with the ball.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Dec 19, 2007 -> 08:37 PM) I would look at what they accomplished with steroids and downgrade their stats based on a little research of their height/weight and go from there. Even if it is decided they didn't break any rules, they used steroids, it enhanced their performance, and to compare them to their non juicing peers, requires some thought and adjustment. So if I now place Palmeiro in the close but no cigar category like McGruff, I think it is defensible. I wouldn't keep them out based on steroids, but I think it is fair to expect better power numbers, more strike outs, etc. then their non juicing peers. Youv'e got to remember the majority of baseball who use these performance enhancing drugs are using it to maintain performance over the long season. The reason that bonds hits the home runs isn't necessarily that he has increased strength and the ball goes further but that he can maintain the strength over the season and he can hit them more consistently over time. So to expect more strikeouts would be a function of always trying to swing for the fences not necessarily from the drugs. Therefore attempting to "adjust" stats would not be accurate. This concept is why many pitchers have used it. It allows them to stay strong over the season and not have a let down. Especially relief pitchers who can come in more often and pitch at their highest level.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 19, 2007 -> 05:33 PM) I don't want to get further into this. I just want to say, re: 2., Juan Marichal is in the HOF despite cracking Roseboro's head wide open with his bat at the plate. I'm just saying -- there are some bad, bad men in the Hall, as well as men who were overall good but did a bad thing or two. Character character character! -- As for Jose Canseco -- he's got borderline HOF numbers, and I would like to rethink my statement that he belongs. He's close, considering everything...but giving it a second look I'm not sure I WOULD pull that trigger. As for the other guys (Sosa, Mc, Clemens, Bonds, Palmeiro) I stand by it completely. Being a bad person shouldn't keep you out of the HOF. Breaking the rules to a severe enough degree should. Canseco if you deem his number worthy should get in. Steroids weren't against the rules. Someone who has been proven to break the rules Bonds, Palmeiro should have some skeptics. It's in the eye of the voter if they decide to keep them out. My personal opinion stands if you've used them I would keep them out.

QUOTE(Gregory Pratt @ Dec 18, 2007 -> 09:43 PM) ptac, are you opposed to players who beat guys up in bars in drunken fits, or would you kick Don Drysdale/Bob Gibson out of the HOF because they wanted to crack your head open if you stood too close to the plate? Willie Mays for taking speed? Ty Cobb for being Ty Cobb! I respect your disagreement. I know I'm in the minority re: baseball+steroids/HOF. For all the reasons I cited, I've come to my conclusion...but the biggest might be the after-the-fact nature of it, as well as just how f***ed up it would be for MLB to honor these guys as players and then for Cooperstown to say, Sorry, go away! 1. Beating up guys in drunken fits, that's a dumb question of course I am against that. Who in thier right mind thinks that's fine. 2. Hitting someone with a baseball is not against the rules. The pitchers you mentioned did not crack anyone's head open with a pitch. If they threw at someone's head with the intent of injury , i would be against that. That's why the umps eject them and they get suspended by the league. 3. Taking speed is illegal and they should be prosecuted as well. I've said all along that speed is much more prevalent and changes the game more than steroids. I'm glad they are testing for it and suspending the players. The "leaded coffee" should be outlawed. Mays played before MLB had rules against it, there's nothing you can do to him now. Ty Cobb did not break baseball rules to my knowledge, I did not see him play. Being a complete ass is not against the rules. If the law were to prosecute him that's their business. If they break the rules of baseball severely enough, I personally would keep them out of the HOF. That is on an individual basis.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 18, 2007 -> 09:18 PM) I'm going to counter this argument with one simple line of thought. Just because other people do something or did something doesn't mean it's ok. I agree with this and would also add that from a medical perspective vaseline balls will not harm your body. I am ethically against using something that can kill you or someone else. Do you think Wil Cordero's wife appreciated the telephone upside the head treatment from the rage? This type of cheating is not just Breaking the rules of a game it is endangering the life of the user and others around them.

QUOTE(jenks45monster @ Dec 18, 2007 -> 08:28 PM) The thing that stands out to me here is that "their bullpen is of the worst in baseball. How do you figure that? Joel Zumaya, 23 and already has proven to be top talent throwing over 100MPH quite often. Todd Jones, 39, their closer, a member of the 300 save club, and yes I realize he is aging and has had an up and down career but you can't really call this guy "bad" compared to some relievers we have. Fransisco Rodney, 30, set-up man, yes he had Tommy John surgery after the 03' campaign, but with a mid-90's fastball and a devastating change-up, this guy is able to dazzle hitters. So really you cannot call this bullpen bad, at all compared to ours. We have 1 trusty bullpen guy in closer Bobby Jenks. They have 3 proven guys. Zumaya is out for most if not all of the year with an injured knee from moving boxes when those CA fires came near his house.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 18, 2007 -> 08:59 AM) It's funny, but I was trying sort that out in my mind just a few minutes ago. If I remember correctly, House worked with Prior ... and Marshall was very critical of House's methods. This is correct. House (who began his coaching career in the south suburbs) worked alot with Prior. There are many people (including myself) who do not agree with his conditioning and training methods. These are the "towel drills" and throwing a football to work on your curveball drills.

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 07:54 PM) Am I missing things, or wasn't the whole idea of Garland's turnaround with Ozzie that Garland wasn't kept on a short leash, where Manuel would pull him at the first sign of trouble, Ozzie supposedly let him work thorugh his problems and actually gain confidence that he could get through a jam. Or at least that's what I kept reading back in 05. this is what I believe is one of Ozzie's strengths. He allows his pitcher's to prove or sink themselves. Many times on this board people scream "why is Ozzie putting X in that position, he hasn't proved himself yet." Ozzie allows the player enough rope to either prove themselves or hang themselves. Sisco, Massett and the like last hung themselves. We'll see what happens with Wassermann, Logan (who has proven he can be somewhat effective) and whoever else is in the pen. As far as the starting staff goes, I think Ozzie's patience will benefit Danks and to a greater extent Floyd. Floyd has the stuff, we'll know soon enough if he can prove he belongs in the show.

QUOTE(IowaSoxFan @ Dec 13, 2007 -> 08:22 AM) If the Whitesox are going to be competitive they have two options. Option 1 - Spend and spend and spend. Go out and acquire top free agent talent to try to compete. This would mean mending fences with Boras and actually pursuing big name free agents. This is a very unlikely option as long as JR owns the team, the Sox cannot spend at the level of the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Angels, or Tigers. Option 2 - Tear the house down and build it up again. Move the veteran players on the roster for youngsters that are not major league ready to maximize the return value that you can receive. Cut the payroll at least in half and use the money that is saved to sign draft picks, international players, and the rule 5 draft. Grow the team from the minor league system and then add in some free agent veterans to plug in holes. They never spend money on big-time free agents like the time didn't sign Albert Belle to one of the biggest FA contracts of that time. It sucks that the JR wouldn't approve that.

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 11:34 AM) Those guys had nowhere near the success that Santana has had so far. You can't base it on health alone, in that case, everyone would only sign one year deals. He has the same chance of injury every year. Not as he gets older and continues to pile on the 200 innings per year. Every pitcher 's should will degenerate and as you get older it will not heal as well. Good mechanics or not the shoulder and elbow take a beating. He doesn't have the same chance every year it increases exponentially every year. That's why I say 4 years max because no one will go year to year.

QUOTE(Texsox @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 11:45 AM) A totally safe budget, without any drains, will net you last place in your division. But I know some would cry this October if they thought we won a World Series with Hunter and his terrible contract, or Rowand, or any of the others. Fourth place and "good contracts" W00t I would disagree with that. Listening to most people on this board, we are going to have the second highest payroll in the division and we are assured of last place this year. Look at the teams of recent vintage in the playoffs. Many low budget teams. It's not how much you spend but it's spending enough and spending it WISELY. I don't think a 7 year contract for any pitcher is wise. I understand the wanting to get the best players at any cost. But it's just my bias from working with players and injuries.

QUOTE(RME JICO @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 11:34 AM) Those guys had nowhere near the success that Santana has had so far. You can't base it on health alone, in that case, everyone would only sign one year deals. He has the same chance of injury every year. All of them had varying degrees of success especially Kevin Brown. However, talent isn't the point, the point is the odds of any pitcher staying healthy over the length of a contract that long isn't great. Too much of a chance.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 10:27 AM) Normally, I'd agree with you. But Santana is something special. He's still young and already a very accomplished pitcher. People said the same thing about Denny Neagle, Mike Hampton, Kevin Brown, Alex Fernandez.... I'm not saying he isn't the best just that the odds of him actually staying healthy for even half the contract isn't good. since you will only be able to insure half of it, that will be a major drain on any budget.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Dec 15, 2007 -> 09:10 AM) Yep. I agree. He's worth it. No pitcher is worth a 7 year deal. Look at the history of those long term deals, I can't think of any that have worked out. I have no problem offering 25 mil for 4 years but I would never sign a pitcher for more than 4 years.