ptatc

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Nov 21, 2006 -> 07:46 PM) Please never say that one of our players is "in the clear" again. At least it didn't say he was taking the clear.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Nov 21, 2006 -> 06:00 PM) While I certainly wouldn't give him that kind of deal and I don't think anyone will, but I never thought Juan Pierre would get $45 million or the Walker LOOGY would get $3million-$4million a year. I think the way its going, the White Sox are going to have to overpay if they want to sign a free agent, or if they want to acquire good players and/or retain them. I do laugh that Boras says Zito isn't an injury risk. There is no such thing as a pitcher who isn't an injury risk. True dat!!!

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Nov 21, 2006 -> 05:17 PM) Vazquez also has spent most of his career in the NL not having to face DHs. He did pitch pretty well down the stretch, and probably deserved some more wins, however earlier in the season he got some wins when he had no business getting them. It evened out and what you got was a guy a shade under .500 with a mediocre ERA. That is eerily similar to his career stats and he's been around a long time. Personally, I'd advocate a lifetime contract for Kenny Williams if he got real crazy and traded both of them for a couple of big packages. Use the salary relief to sign Zito or Schmidt and you have your rotation intact and have replenished your system. Did you see the demands Boras has for Zito? 7-8 years at around 15-17 mil. They can stuff it for that.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Nov 21, 2006 -> 03:53 PM) If you're reasonably close to Milwaukee, try to make it up to a game this year. The team is freakishly athletic, and as I'm sure you know, has been hyped to death. I fear that the games where the shots don't fall might get ugly, but they're fun to watch when they're going good. ESPN2 tonight. We are! Marquette! I usually get up there for one game the trainer I worked with is still there or see them here in Chicago against DePaul. The games are fun regardless.

QUOTE(VAfan @ Nov 21, 2006 -> 03:53 PM) I have no trouble adding power pitchers to the pen, but I can't see trading one of our starting 5 for pitching prospects. Isn't that what teams out of the race do at midseason? How can you expect to get better pitching back?? It just doesn't compute in my mind. If someone can provide some examples where that has worked, let me know. What I could see is trading one of our starters -- and I'm convinced it has to be Javier Vazquez, both because with a longer contract he should have more value and because I think the trade for him really weakened this team last year -- for a young outfielder with significant potential. Of course, we gave up a young outfielder with significant potential to get Vazquez last year -- Chris Young. Wouldn't it be nice to have him back?? He could be in the mix for CF or LF in 2007, and he could soften the blow when we lose Jermaine Dye in 2008. I'm still not sold on Brian Anderson or Ryan Sweeney (or Josh Fields) as above average outfielders of the future, much less superstars. If we could get someone with significant potential for our outfield -- Lastings Milledge? -- for Vazquez, I would make that kind of deal. But I'm still not seeing GREAT choices out there. I'd almost rather roll the dice again with what we have. Off the top of my head how about Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz? or AJ Pierzynski for Joe Nathan, Fransico Liriano and Boof Bonser or Matt Karchner for Jon Garland or Harold Baines and Wayne Tolleson for Sammy Sosa Wilson Alvarez and Scott Fletcher. We can get better by picking up nearly ready pitching prosepcts to help us in the next couple of years when free agents leave while putting MaCarthy in the rotation. This would not work if we didn't have Macarthy ready.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Nov 21, 2006 -> 02:39 PM) Nope -- a current undergrad. Crap!! I feel old. Have a couple at the Gym for me!!!! Go Warriors!!! (I'll never let it go)

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Nov 21, 2006 -> 01:56 PM) Himes made up for it with McDowell in 1987, thank you Cubs for taking Harkey the guy the Sox really wanted, Ventura in 1988, Thomas in 1989, thank you Phillies for taking Jeff Jackson, the guy the Sox really wanted, and Fernandez in 1990. A pretty incredible streak. He also got a couple of decent players in later rounds like Ray Durham. I think Himes also got Jason Bere in the 36th round. JR couldn't stand him(Himes) personally so he was shown the door. The late 80's weren't bad. Not a lot of quantity but plenty of quality. Taking Kurt Brown in 1985 when Barry Bonds was still on the board was not something Roland Hemond or his scouts would put on their resumes. He wasn't alone. Most people didn't like him. He was really good at player evaluation just not a "people" person. Is that PC enough?

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 10:40 PM) Awesome -- Duke tomorrow night. Matthews played really well on the offensive end. The best part about the win tonight was the effort down low. Marquette outrebounded Tech by at least ten. The trio of sophomores combined for 50+ points. Tomorrow's going to be fun. I don't know if we have anybody who can guard McRoberts, but neither Nelson nor Shaier (sp?) will beat us. And if Coach K tries to go man, Wes Matthews will eat Schaier alive. Are you a Marquette grad? I knew there was something there I liked!!!!!

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 11:11 PM) Fixed. Wow. I've been fixed. I guess I've reached the pinnacle now. (however, I still disagree.)

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 08:05 PM) Young did have a significant weakness when he was traded, his strikeout rate. He's since corrected that though. That remians to be seen. I'm not yet convinved.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 07:48 PM) I'm surprised you of all people would consider Danks and Young equals. Young is one hell of a prospect, dont get me wrong, but getting an arm like Danks is much, much more valuable than an outfielder like Young. I agree. Pitching is always more valuable. But his overall concept is accurrate.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 07:14 PM) I believe you're misunderstanding my theory. You're looking at such a deal now. Look at it from the beginning -- A dependable MLB reliever, swingman/starter capable of 100+ innings, AND a good OF prospect brought you Vazquez. This was following a mediocre season from Javier in the national league, and when the market didn't necessitate someone overpaying for a pitcher. We didn't exactly need one, BTW. McCArthy could have been in the rotation and Hernandez in the bullpen with Vizcaino. Following another medicore year in 2006, I figure he'll command a similar package -- if not for the current market of starting pitchers. This changes everything. Even if you're looking for something similar, you have to reasonably compare Young and Danks in their respective positions. Now, does Masset compare to Vizcaino? Hell no. There's not even a swingman starter in the current proposal from the Rangers. Danks/Masset isn't overpaying, as I would hope for -- but about equal value. Trading for 'equal value' shouldn't be our objective. That's all I'm suggesintg. I'll buy that.

QUOTE(beautox @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 06:31 PM) Sign Shannon Stewart to an incentive laden deal to play LF? Or deal Garcia/Vazquez for Humber and Lastsings an outfield of Sweeney Anderson Milledge for the next 6+ years That would definitely be an outstanding defensive outfield.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 06:22 PM) This can't possibly be the best package available to us........right? I recall several weeks ago when Sheffield was connected with Linebreck/prospects in trade discussions. Yankee fans were seriously considering it as their best option. Not many believed a malcontent OF recovering from an injury and commanding a contract extension could receive much return value. Shortly thereafter, Detroit stepped forward. What I'm hoping is, when several starting pitchers are signed, the trade proposals increase beyond Danks/Masset. My philosophy is if Sheffield, with all his issues, can give the Yankees three legitimate pitching prospects, one of our starters should bring in two. Not because they deserve it, but because the field of available pitchers is thin. It's funny to read the quote posted where the Rangers are considering walking about from the deal. That must be a Rangers officially leaking such information, because I don't know if ANYONE considers Masset a deal-breaker. What exactly do the Rangers have to walk back to, anyways? Another year of mediocre pitching? If Williams overpaid for Vazquez in a calm market, shouldn't we expect more in a one overvaluing every available starting pitcher? That's atleast how I look at it. Overpaid? He traded a broken down pitcher who won't throw more than140 innings again in his life, a decent middle reliever and a good hittng prospect for an innings eater talented starting pitcher. By that theory, we cannot get a good starting pitching prospect for an established starting pitcher.

Where did this quote come from? In the Phil Rogers chat for BA it mentions Honel had an elbow surgery but it was not a Tommy John ligament transplant surgery.

QUOTE(Mr. Showtime @ Nov 17, 2006 -> 06:37 PM) How about this season's Hawk win total + next season vs. 07 Sox? How about the 06-07 Blackhawks (we'll go with points even not wins) + 06-07 Bulls vs. the 2007 Sox?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 01:16 PM) While 99.9% of the comments in this thread make perfect sense, the fact of the matter is you don't have to be very good in the NL to win. You can't say the Cubs with a healthy Lee and Soriano in the line-up aren't capable of winning 82-87 games, something that would get you 3rd or 4th place in the AL. You get on a roll in the playoffs, and you sneak a world title, like the Cardinals did this year. The Cardinals were one of the worst teams I saw at USCF this year, but they will get rings. Two out of the three Cardinal pitchers who started at Comiskey were not on the playoff roster. And they didn't have Rolen either. They did get on a playoff roll but they also got healthy at the right time. They were good enough to hold on in the regular season which wouldn't have happened in the AL.

QUOTE(kwolf68 @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 12:49 PM) Agree, but there is no way in hades the Orioles would deal a talent like Erik Bedard. No way...even they can't be that stupid. That's why I don't see them as a good fit for a trade. However, KW can work some pretty creative 3 way trades that may involve other teams.

QUOTE(GreatScott82 @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 12:03 PM) I actually wouldn't be surprised if KW just kept him and give him one more shot at it. With that said he would probably look to upgrade at CF somehow to balance out the lineup more. Patterson is intriuging, i wonder what Baltamore would want for him? Would you guys trade Owens for him? Now that the Cubs have all the talk around town, do you think KW will try to steal some of that energy and aqcuire a big name?? Things have been too quite lately.... KW worries about making the Sox better, not what happens on the other side of town. Any deal with Baltimore had better begin with Bedard otherwise they have nothing we need.

QUOTE(southsider2k5 @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 11:53 AM) A few thoughts here... -The Cubs are gigantic idiots if they plan on hitting Soriano in the leadoff spot. Why would you hit your best power hitter, directly after the worst two hitters in your line up? -So is the 3 years for $39 million for Furcal is absurd anymore. If the Cubs make that deal, they save $100 million, 5 years, and a full no trade clause. -A full no trade clause might actually be the dumbest part of this whole contract. The guy is a selfish player, who shows all of the classic signs of regressing once the dollar/"respect" motivation is gone. -If you were going to spend that kind of cash, go out and fix the biggest problems the Cubs have and get two starting pitchers. I would be impressed if both Schmidt and Zitos deals added together total what Soriano just received. This is the important concept they are missing. They still need two starting pitchers to have any shot at going deep in the playoffs. As Yoda said "If you chose the quick and easy path you will become an agent of evil." They chose the the path of spectacular move but not the move which will help them win. Unless they add the pitching.

I agree with the Sausage King. Players who strike out alot and don't walk kill any type of consistent offense regradless of how many HRs they hit. He is going to drive cub fans nuts just as patterson did. However, they will forgive him as he hits the 30th solo home run of the season.

QUOTE(nitetrain8601 @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 10:36 AM) You sure because someone had a sig with a link to the article stating it was Schueler's and that Schueler knew he didn't have to send both Fogg and Wells, but did so anyway. It was KW with a quote from Schueler who was a consultant at the time, that he liked the trade but didn't know if Fogg needed to be included with Wells and Lowe.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Nov 19, 2006 -> 11:28 AM) At the beginning of last season, Widger commented that Garland was having some shoulder problems. He seemed to overcome them obviously. I do think the White Sox luck with pitcher's health has to come to an end sometime. I know Herm Schneider is considered among the best if not the best, but there is only so much a trainer can do to help prevent injury. Wrong we are Gods we can do anything!!! Seriously, TheSox are lucky to have young players with proven track records of health, that is the biggest factor. A good trainer and pitching coach to keep too many stressful mechanics out of the system helps is next. Third is too work the pitchers regularly with number of oitches not too many which most people focus on but also not too few. This is something the Sox do in the minors which others don't. Have the pitcher's work even if it may cost a game. Afterall, the game results in the minros is secondary to health and progressive in skills.

QUOTE(TLAK @ Nov 19, 2006 -> 07:58 AM) I used the numbers I posted in the Daily Stats Thread. Daily Stats Thread I call a start bad at a 6 ERA, giving Javy 12, Buerlhe also had 12. Freddy only had 8. When the starter throws 6 ERA ball it is very difficult for his team will win. As a team White Sox were 12-40 in these bad starts, 26-17 when the starter was Meh (3-6), and 50-10 with Quality outings (3 or less). The more baseball I watch the more I am convinced that most games are lost by one team rather than won by the other. Basic competent baseball, which includes catching the ball, smart pitch selection and getting runners on, over and in will beat a bunch of jazzy all-stars almost every time. A sound defense and a couple of runs are of great help to the pitcher. The pitcher has to avoid dumb mistakes and keep his concentration. I think pitchers make 'errors', for example throwing a 0-2 slider to Craig f-ing Monroe, just like a fielder kicking a ball. How else to explain Javy's lousy record despite his great stuff? He finds a way to lose. Great post. Quality pitching and good defense wins. Here is a question that I can't find the answer to: How many times has a team with the leading HR player or a team with the most HR won the world series? Idon't believe it would be very high.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Nov 18, 2006 -> 05:59 PM) If Anderson is included, Texas absolutely has to include Hurley. Garland + Anderson for Danks/Hurley/Basset is about what I"d expect. We shouldn't be looking to trade for equal value here. This is our opportunity to take advantage of surplus pitching. It's difficult to expect a legitimate upgrade in LF/CF, however, unless prospects obtained from Garland (added with our package) were sent to TB for Crawford. Do you believe we'll pay 13-14 million a year for J.D. Drew? I'd think a trades for Figgens alone may occur, in which some combination of prospects would be sent over. Problem is, who exactly would they want? Sweeney would probably be platooned in CF, and we're not exactly stacked with anything else. I'd say, see if Anaheim might want Fields and Broadway. This is probably one of the most feasible of the suggestions on the board. If you truly want three players particularly pitchers from another team we will not to give up more than one of our starters. I like this deal alot.