whitesoxfan101

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jul 27, 2011 -> 09:00 AM) cst_Cowley cst_Cowley So Toronto dumps a solid reliever to get a bad third baseman and a starter that is done in two months, plus they give a prospect? Interesting take... and probably honest. It's hard to look at this deal in a vacuum and not constantly think of Daniel Hudson. Also, the BS (I called that from the get-go) idea that St. Louis would move Rasmus with Jackson as the main piece also got us all hopped up on crazy. However, the deal is fair as stands, and rather dumb for the Jays if it happens. My issue in this trade is the White Sox are basically wasting Edwin Jackson's (he'd bring back way better than this on his own) value in order to get rid of a bad contract (Teahen). It's why I think this is a pretty bad trade. Also, Ozzie Guillen's favorite family member fails to point out that the "solid reliever" we get is also "done in two months".

QUOTE (PlaySumFnJurny @ Jul 27, 2011 -> 08:58 AM) You can't just give up and pull the plug on this close of a pennant race twice in 14 years. That's asking too much of your fans. Especially when we are "All In" and this division is All Suck. I don't think they're too worried about massaging the fans right now since they haven't shown up to support "All In". But, in the fans defense, part of the reason they're not showing up is the team can't even play .500 ball.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Jul 27, 2011 -> 08:50 AM) I don't think this is White Flag stuff. It's not like it's Jackson and Teahen for prospects alone. Frasor is a good pitcher with a decent option for next year. If there is no money going to the Jays for Teahen, it'll be a better deal but still not great. I would think that this is step one of a series of deals, but many of us thought that about the Hudson for Jackson deal. The rumored trade itself isn't White Flag II because the Sox can claim it's a win now while necessarily shedding payroll deal. But, rumor is there may be more coming involving Floyd and/or Danks, and THAT would mean we're giving up. And honestly, if we do that, I can't blame us.

QUOTE (PlaySumFnJurny @ Jul 27, 2011 -> 08:47 AM) I won't survive or accept another "White Flag" firesale. Not when we're 4.5 out and its July 27th. Not when we're supposed to be "All In." It took me years to get over the first one. I can accept the general concept of White Flag II. We went all in, but have been below .500 almost all season and aren't drawing many fans. My issue is if we go White Flag II and make bad trades.

Some people on here owe the thread started an apology assuming that close becomes deal. I'm not a fan of this trade at all, but considering who is making it....I'm not surprised. And I'm sure the reasoning behind it will be dumping salary while still trying to win now. That logic goes out the window if Danks and/or Floyd are also traded though.

QUOTE (Leonard Zelig @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 11:10 PM) In this preseason poll, in which 65 soxtalkers voted, only 3 people thought the Sox would win less less than 88 games. Over 75% thought the team would win more than 90 games. 80% thought they would win the division and only 1 thought they would finish lower than second place. I know every poster did not vote, but it seems the consensus of soxtalk was that KW put a quality team together. I thought the Sox would win the division. But to say the GM doesn't deserve blame because we as fans thought the team would be good is just wrong IMO.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 11:03 PM) Part of that 2009 season was 100 games of kickassness. You are being Mr. Hindsight right now. He was 50 games of great (July and September) and 54 of low 700's OPS (June and August) that year. Then, he hit like crap last year. I'm not sure how anybody not trusting his bat going into this year is hindsight with how he hit last year in particular.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:58 PM) Dunn is clearly not KWs fault. But Peavy is. Rios is. Pierre is. Not having any suitable replacements in the minors except Viciedo. Having to rely on big-money acquisitions because we don't have any cheap, young and good talent in our system. That's all on KW. This is a key point. Unlike other organizations, we don't have a plan B because we don't have a minor league system because we can't draft. It's the biggest failing of KW.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:56 PM) I never said every year. I think it's quite clear that people had high expectations for this team coming into the 2011 season and that most thought they were the favorites to win the division. Again, the GM doesn't go out there and pitch or hit. How is KW at fault for the struggles of Adam Dunn? Gordon Beckham? What's Gordon Beckham ever done other than hit well for part of the 2009 season? Being a high draft pick doesn't mean you're worthy of trust as a key bat.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:55 PM) I'd be willing to give KW a few more years if it means he brings in a new manager. However, if he's going to lack the balls to fire Ozzie and/or stand up to him, then I hope they both leave. Does he even have the authority to fire Ozzie if he wanted to?

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:47 PM) Being a paper champion is all a GM can do. And the bolded pat is absolutely true. People were as optimistic as ever after that game. They scored a ton of runs, Dunn hits a HR in his 2nd AB as a Sox player. Things are gravy. The bolded part is true, but it shows people are stupid sometimes. Everybody always overreacts to opening day, for better or worse. One of my least favorite parts of baseball. I wouldn't say the White Sox were a paper champion as much as they were a paper team that could win in the high 80's again and win a bad division this year. For the price we're paying, I think expectations should be higher than that (although they clearly were for you, which I suppose I kind of get).

QUOTE (kjshoe04 @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:46 PM) You're not surprised that Alex Rios is THIS bad? I know I am. He's 135 points under his career low OPS. Last year, I spent the entire year expecting the other shoe to drop. After hearing all of the reports on him from Toronto, and then seeing his performance in 2009 with the White Sox, it was hard to think something like that happening again was impossible.

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:43 PM) As much as I hate Rios and had minimal hope for Morel, I never imagined they'd be two of the weakest hitters we've seen in a Sox jersey in a long time. We all saw Rios down the stretch in 2009 after he was brought in, and nobody should be surprised that it's happening again IMO. Really, you could see him starting to fall off the last two months of last season. And I think a lot of us had minimal hope for Morel. He's probably the guy among the little 4 I mentioned who has surprised me the most with his level of ineptitude. But, he's a rookie. It can spiral quickly if it starts bad for someone like that.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:42 PM) Game management, yes. Roster construction, no. The day before the season started, the White Sox were AL Central favorites and legit contenders. After opening day, the White Sox looked to be on the path of something special. Now we have an awful team full of awful players with awful contracts. Give me a break. They're 2 games under .500 with seemingly everyone but PK and CQ hitting like s***. Couldn't help but laugh at the bolded. The Sox looked on the path of something special after playing great in 1/162nd of their season?! Also, being the favorite before the season is irrelevant. Being a paper champion doesn't get you very far.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:39 PM) If Dunn is even close to his career averages, the White Sox are in first place right now. What does that say about the struggles of the other guys you mentioned? I don't know. It says our division is really bad? The struggles of Beckham, Rios, Pierre, and Morel haven't been a surprise. Perhaps the extent of them has been a surprise (but even that, not so much). I just find it ridiculous that so many people think Alex Rios underachieving massively/not giving good effort is a surprise. Or that Juan Pierre isn't aging well is a surprise. Or that Brent Morel not being able to hit MLB pitching is a surprise. Or that Gordon Beckham having an OPS under 700 again is a surprise. None of them are. Adam Dunn is a SHOCK, but those guys aren't a shock or surprise.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:37 PM) I've been in the Sox clubhouse numerous times. There is never an uptight moment in there. In fact, I've been in there at times when the team has struggled mightily and you'd think the team was on a 20 game win streak. You can't go around and ask 25 guys what they think about adding Player X to the team. I don't think the problem is, or ever has been (at least under Ozzie), in the clubhouse. The Sox issues are in game management and roster construction related.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:31 PM) How can you blame him for the players underachieving? YOU CAN'T. On paper, this team should run away with this division and be a legit world series contender. That's all a GM could do, make a team look good on paper. Christ on a stick I can't believe people are blaming KW for this team's failures. The only completely impossible to predict thing on this team right now, in terms of underachieving, is Dunn. I can't blame anybody for that, other than Dunn himself. Outside of that though, I mean Beckham, Rios, Pierre, Morel? I'm really not that shocked at any of their seasons, and I don't see how anybody could be. However, I think the Sox would be in 1st if Dunn were Dunn right now. To make a GM blameless for a 127 million dollar payroll being below .500 in a bad division is ridiculous though. Especially considering his recent track record with trades (awful), and not firing his awful manager (awful).

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:24 PM) Well, I am obviously the big KW supporter here....so I'll take the criticism, but I sure as hell can't fault the guy for assembling the best rotation in the division, the best bullpen in the division, and what should be an offense as good as any other in the division, only to watch the players fail. This s*** with Adam Dunn is absolutely inexplicable. If he was hitting anywhere close to his career average we are in first place right now. If this deal is true, and it isn't, then I am clearly wrong about the guy because this is a panic move. I can't defend a GM who, given a 127 million dollar payroll, put together a team that has been under .500 almost all season and struggling to tread water in a bad division.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:20 PM) Not this guy. I have said all along that KW was the bigger culprit to the demise of this organization than the loud mouth ass we having running the team from the dugout. I have no problem with your post personally, but it reminds me of something: I hate when people compare Ozzie and KW in terms of who deserves more blame. They're both AWFUL at their job right now and deserve to be fired. End of story. I don't care who deserves it more.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:07 PM) Even if you like to buy into the Sox being dumb, how does this benefit Toronto? They're in on Ubaldo, and maybe have decided they can't get him and would rather go after Edwin and take their chances they can sign him long term. Or maybe they think they can turn Edwin into Ubaldo (although I admit that scenario is not likely).

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 10:05 PM) His ERA with the White Sox over the past year has been very respectable. I'm not saying we're going to get Grady Sizemore and Cliff Lee, but I would think we would do better than a salary dump 5 full days before the deadline. You (and others) are right that this trade doesn't make sense. But, these are the White Sox we're talking about! I could see Kenny doing this. He would rationalize it by saying it's a win now move that saves money.

Well, this is a soxtalk exclusive if true. To say the least.

If this is true, this had better be an elite prospect.

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 09:25 PM) I tend to go with the pitchers not getting the job done. It was one of the most consistent guys in the pen that allowed the leading run to score. There was no excuse for Jake Peavy to START the 6th inning. He was allowed to face NINE BATTERS in it instead. Those three runs in a one run loss are somewhat important.

QUOTE (Soxbadger @ Jul 26, 2011 -> 08:34 PM) Tolzien could be a good back up. Smart guy who is pretty accurate and wont generally kill you with mistakes. Brooks Bollinger and Sorgi made it in the NFL, so there should be a place for Tolzien. Agreed, I think Tolzien is better than Bollinger and Sorgi to be honest.