Balta1701

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 2, 2017 -> 09:55 PM) I think Bell is a perfect fit. Maybe not as perfect as Meadows or Torres but pretty damn close. Good teams need players who can flat hit the ball and packing two switch hitters of Moncada and Bell's caliber together could be the foundation of a great lineup. Maybe in a lost season the Sox give him some run at RF, but I have confidence he'll turn into a good 1b at least. Keller, Newman, Glasnow + another would be a pretty great haul. Even if I am down on Glasnow I cannot deny that he would be an ideal third piece as a dominant reliever. Personally, after watching this offseason, yes I undervalue Bell, because I see 1b/DH only types as who are good but not HOF caliber being overabundant and underpaid. That means that you can get guys like Abreu, Frazier, Napoli, Carter, Lind, Trumbo, Alvarez, Butler, Morneau, Bautista, and so on for less than you think in a trade or in a FA signing. You can get the elite guys - Encarnacion, for only a 3 year commitment. So yeah, I would not value Bell all that highly even if i think he will be a good hitter, because for a team that can support a $130 million payroll, this is an easy position to fill in even if your system doesn't fill it for you. A truly elite hitter, a Miguel Cabrera or Frank Thomas, fine then I will trade for that, but no one has said they think bell is a Frank Thomas level producer. For the Pirates, a hitter under team control who is decent is a huge deal, they've had a gigantic hole at that position for a decade because they can't support the same payroll we can. Josh Bell is more valuable to the Pirates than to the White Sox, and substantially so. Heck, we have a guy who is paid fairly, who isn't a great producer but we control with some upside, under team control for the next 3 years. So yes, I will not pay a premium for Bell. I will pay a premium for Meadows because name our long term outfield option. If we trade for Bell, we have to trade Abreu when no one wants him or stick him at DH when he can still sometimes play the field and he's not a strong DH.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 2, 2017 -> 06:32 PM) Realistically, even if Saladino can be a 3B, I think he would be the type of 3B that you would be looking to improve upon if you were going to be a playoff team. In terms of asset valuation, the odds of Todd Frazier being able to bring you back something are much higher than Tyler Saladino. Sure he may be able to start, but I don't see him as any sort of long term starter either. So, let's turn this loose and make the case. Take a look at the 2015 and 2016 White Sox, and one thing I think they have almost criminally undervalued is creating average players from their own system. This failure has propagated through their decisions over and over and it is a key part of why they were such a failure. When you develop a couple of "decent" players, a couple of "average" players, what happens? You have the ability to put those guys onto your roster, play them regularly, and spend the big money elsewhere. Go to the World Series teams and you have plenty of examples just from this year - Naquin, Napoli, Chisenhall, Rajai Davis, Carlos Santana to some extent - these are guys who weren't paid a ton, but they were decent enough players. Similarly, with the Cubs - Hammel, David Ross, Coghlan, Szczur, every single one of those guys you would truthfully say "You would be looking to improve on them if you were going to be a playoff team". I totally buy that. But a true playoff team, IMO, has a handful of elite players and combines that with guys who are good enough, guys you would improve on if you could, but who are decent players and support your roster. Compare that to the White Sox over the last few years and I think the mistake becomes blatant. How many decent players have the White Sox spent huge amounts of money or talent to acquire? Melky Cabrera, Brett Lawrie, their 2016 catchers, Austin Jackson, Rollins, Bonifacio, LaRoche - they have put a huge amount of resources into trying to bring some of their positions up to decent. They've said "this position is terrible and if we bring it up to decent it's a big improvement" - that statement is right, but when you're spending a ton of resources to do that, it's a major issue. Counting Cabrera, Lawrie, Rollins, LaRoche, and Jackson, just for 2016, we're talking about $35 million, a 2015 3rd round pick, 2 pitchers traded for Lawrie, 2 players traded for Shields (one of whom was worth something), and even then the only reason why the back 40% of our starting rotation wasn't among the 5 worst in MLB was a guy given up for nothing by the Orioles. Conversely, how many times have we seen a surge from this team just by plugging in someone "decent" at a position? 2015 there was a surge when Saladino took over 3b, we also saw such things earlier with guys like Hudson and Youkilis taking over 3b for someone terrible, Trayce taking over CF, Garcia taking over RF in 2014 when he briefly hit. How much value did the White Sox get out of having Gonzalez last year? How much of a difference did one cheap, average player make? That was the difference between an average rotation and a bottom 5 of the league rotation. Basically, having a couple "average" players that we develop from our own system, guys who are average 1-2 WAR players who are paid MLB minimum, is seriously underrated by this organization. When we have those guys, we trade them for our big name additions like Frazier and Samardzija, then as a result we find ourselves having gaping holes at positions they could have filled and having to spend $10 million+ to fill those posiitons with guys who have a substantial probability of flopping. This is connected. Why did we have to spend so much on Lawrie - because we gave up on Semien. Why did we have to spend money on Jackson last year and wind up with Shuck as our starting CF? Because we gave up on Thompson. When you have a couple of average MLB players in your lineup, yes you would happily replace them with all stars, but you need a couple of those even when you have all stars. If you develop them on your own, this is doing you a favor. You yourself constantly point out that the White Sox won't be a player for big name FAs. Do you know why? Because we have $12 million invested in Cabrera, $12.5 million invested in LaRoche, $5 million in Jackson, $6 million in Latos and Rollins, $4 million in Lawrie, and that doesn't count the players given up to get them. Why don't we have $25 million to go after a top flight FA? Because we don't think average players developed from our own system are worth anything. You want to know why we couldn't go after Cespedes? There's the money. We're going to hopefully have some elite players from what we've traded . Hopefully we just acquired a few of them, especially in the rotation. But if you want to add an elite FA to them, you still need one other thing - you need to develop a handful of decent players on their own. If you can't do that, then you are going to wind up looking like the 2015-16 White Sox - top-heavy, with a couple of big name guys, but struggling to fill in a roster. The 2015/16 White Sox weren't an accident - it came out of this exact concept, that big names are better than filling out a roster. Compared to "getting a slightly better return for Todd Frazier", I contend that a single developed, average player under team control for 3 more years is far, far more important. It is not nearly as important as "getting an all star or two back for Quintana", we should never ever ever ever ever play Saladino in front of Moncada because developing those all stars is a far higher priority. But you give me a 2 WAR, quality defensive 3b sitting next to Anderson, and I think you have made a strong upgrade to this roster. It won't put us in the playoffs on its own...but you won't be able to play the FA market effectively if you undervalue this part, because you will be spending all your FA money making up for that failure, and that is the 2015/16 White Sox.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 2, 2017 -> 10:17 PM) My favorite realistic offer starts with Meadows or Torres. The real question is what is the least you would be happy with. Would Glasnow + Newman + a couple low level pieces be OK? For me I dont think so. I also dont think I could stomach a Mateo-led return from the Yankees unless it was a mountain of depth. I cant even remember the last 5-for-1 swap, was the Johan Santana trade 5-for-1? If it's Glasnow, then even though neither are perfect fits for us, it's either Glasnow + Bell + 2 lesser pieces, or Glasnow + Newman + Keller + a minor piece. I will hold him if those offers are not met. They are going to pay a premium if they will not give me an OF.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Jan 2, 2017 -> 10:00 PM) So what is everyone's preferred REALISTIC trade offer? I'm going to go with Yankees and Frazier, Kaprielian, Andujuar, + lotto ticket A baller... Pirates give up Meadows + 2 lesser pieces as ST approaches.

Totally living up to the stereotype I have of the entire Republican party as corrupt, the Republican Congress has decided there should not be any nonpartisan ethics office with any oversight of Congress, they should control all of it.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 2, 2017 -> 04:05 PM) It would actually be a pick between the 2nd & 3rd rounds and that is the worst case scenario. If he's on pace for a 3 to 4 WAR season come the deadline, we should get a much better return than that. Again, I'm not sure why you want to give him away no matter the return. Because I want to know if Tyler Saladino can be a big league 3b and whether his body can last 150 games and I will not know that until Tyler Saladino is penciled in to play 150 games. If he can be adequate with the bat and a strong defender at 3b, then that is another position covered with an established big leaguer without having to give up anything of value to cover the position. The more positions we do that with, the fewer we will need to fill in 2018 and 2019 via free agency and the more funds we will have available to fill those remaining positions with guys who will make a major impact. But the only way I know whether or not Tyler Saladino can stay healthy and be a good enough big leaguer with strong defense is to play him there. Tyler turning into a 2 WAR player at 3b is far more valuable to me than slightly improving the return from Todd Frazier. There are 3b available next offseason and after 2018. I need to know whether my internal candidate, who has a legit chance of failing for several reasons, can be a decent player or not before I have to make those decisions. Plus, saving a portion of the >$10 million Todd Frazier will be paid this year won't be a bad thing either. When you go through those player value and draft pick value estimates, his salary is worth more than that draft pick.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 2, 2017 -> 03:49 PM) While it's looking less and less likely a Frazier trade happens before opening day, I think that article shows that a lot of teams might be in the market for a 3B come the deadline. I think you hold him and hope to see some serious improvement in his second season in AL. I still think it's incredibly likely he'll be good enough to warrant a QO next offseason and ultimately land us a pick in a worst case scenario. I just don't see the benefit of dumping him for pennies on the dollar. Keep in mind that's a 3rd round pick for us, right? So literally that pick is pennies on the dollar.

If he's movable, I'd guess it's something like "end of the offseason" when there are no free agent options left whatsoever. Right now you've still got guys like Jason Hammel, Jake Peavy, Jon Niese, Colby Lewis, Doug Fister, and I'm tired of listing them - all of whom are comparable options to fill out the back of a rotation for 1/2 a year or so.

Anyone ever been out to Big Bend National Park? Just mainly looking for recommendation of "Where to stay while visiting" if you're not up for camping.

QUOTE (reiks12 @ Jan 2, 2017 -> 11:58 AM) I skimmed the thread. Is there any information on his pitch framing skills? I have never seen anyone guess about how to gauge where minor leaguers are in terms of that.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 1, 2017 -> 05:36 PM) The problem is even if they do draft a QB, chances of him being the primary QB in 2017, are very slim. The 6-10 will be with a guy like Brian Hoyer under center. That is fine. If they draft a guy, he should be ready to take over sometime between games 6-10 if no one gets hurt. In that case, 6 wins means that the skill players showed some improvement and they got something out of FA and the draft again.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 1, 2017 -> 06:24 PM) Does it matter? 6-10 is still 6-10 and shows the talent leve and or coaching is not up to snuff. It is amazing anyone would have any patience after 6-10, 3-13, and 6-10. The disaster that was Emery/Trestman was 8-8, 5-11. Love got canned after a 10-6. Fox is now in Abe Gibson territory after 2 years. I can't see how they would bring him back in 2018 if they didn't make the playoffs next year. If you are going to make a change unless a miracle happens, wouldn't it be better to move on now and restart the clock? Yes. Because I will look at "improvement" as a positive thing if you've picked a rookie QB, because that rookie would be expected to improve further in 2018. I will take 6-10 in that case. I will find "improvement" unacceptable as the only goal if you've added a more expensive, veteran QB, and likely given up draft picks to do it. In that case, playoff competition would be a minimum requirement based on the decisions they made - don't make decisions that sacrifice the future to compete in 2017 if you're not ready to fire everyone if you fail to compete in 2017. (this seems oddly relevant for this board. Anywho). If they added a rookie QB and still won 3 games, that would also be a major concern since that would mean they hadn't gotten anything else out of FA or the draft to improve on the lineup weaknesses.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Jan 1, 2017 -> 05:20 PM) For sure and i wasn't coming after you. My point is that Glasnow could be a third piece to the Sox if they don't like him. This is totally logical because the Pirates have played their hand by trying to replace him with Quintana. The idea of being excited by getting Glasnow as the first or second piece is a terrifying proposition to us as Sox fans. Most of us would not be excited to get Glasnow as the first or second piece, and rightfully so. So yes, he would be a terrific third piece. Second is an arguable stretch and first is a freaking nightmare. Absolute nightmare. FWIW, I still think Cole, Quintana, Glasnow, Taillon, and Nova shapes up as the kind of rotation that should scare the Cubs. So, there's reason why they might do a trade for Quintana even if they do like Glasnow a lot. 2 rookies, 3 guys who had health problems, and a "Searage already fixed him" guy in that rotation without him, it has a lot of upside, but the #1 thing that would fit in that rotation well is "a guy who is strong and really, really, really consistent" because it balances out something going wrong.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jan 1, 2017 -> 05:05 PM) They have no corners, no QB, the safeties suck. They might not be 3-13 again, but can they be .500? Does 6-10 or 7-9 spell the end of Fox next year? Does it spell the end of Pace? Is that with Tony Romo or Jimmy Gimnotlookinguphowtospellhisnametoday at QB, or is that with a 2nd round pick as their starting QB? Because if they trade for Romo and go 6-10 then fire everyone, GM included. If they trade for JG and go 6-10 then how did their QB play look while getting there?

QUOTE (beautox @ Jan 1, 2017 -> 05:03 PM) I would be for Glasnow, Bell, Hayes & Hearn if Meadows if truly untouchable. Even with Glasnow's "warts" if there is a system that could get the most out of him it is the sox. Bell solves a lot of needs and can spend some more time down at AAA to work on his defense and slow his clock while we hope Abreu continues his second half dominance before being moved. The more I look at Hayes the more I really like him and third base can be a challenge to develop, he could be better than his father Charlie. Hearn has health issues and was the piece they received for Melancon, I think if the sox make a trade with the pirates and Meadows isn't included Hearn needs to be included to up the total value of the package over someone like Diaz and Escobar. If Austin Meadows is untouchable, the White Sox should play the waiting game. If the Pirates will NOT move Meadows then at some point they are going to HAVE to move McCutchen - there simply is no way for that team to play both of them this season. They have found a market for Cutch but so far haven't gotten offers that motivated them to make the move. If they move McCutchen, that should add at least 1 more piece to their top 3 prospects, making that a substantially different list and potentially adding a piece that would be more of interest to us than Bell or Glasnow. If the Pirates simply cannot move McCutchen, then when the deadline of ST starting gets close, they may change their tune about who is untouchable. It may take us giving up some money to make the deal work based on previous statements about the Bucs being unable to add salary, but a deadline will shake this up. Similarly, knowing that the season is getting close may make competing teams nervous about the Pirates opening things up and that could shake up the Cubs or other organizations as well.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 1, 2017 -> 05:48 PM) Barring some sort of disaster or humiliation Pace will be around for next year's draft. He deserves to have his own guy coaching this team. So, the 2016 season?

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Jan 1, 2017 -> 05:41 PM) Just slightly outside of your parameters but Austin Meadows, Ke'Bryan Hayes, Taylor Hearn, and Barrett Barnes? To me, if the Pirates wouldn't do that I don't think there is a deal to be made. If it's not Meadows then I would take a deal from another team if possible. Bell and Newman are fine prospects in their own right, but we need a better hitting prospect than those 2 back for Q. Give me Diaz instead of Barnes, because of the position he plays?

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 1, 2017 -> 04:40 PM) Week 1 Raiders Saints http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxs...01609110nor.htm Thanks.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 1, 2017 -> 04:36 PM) Leonard Floyd was a puzzling pick as well, especially with the trade up. Really though I expect them to trade down with the Bills for '17 1st, '17 2nd, '18 1st. Depends on how much job security he has. If he's trading for future year picks he better be confident he doesn't need that first round pick to save his job after 2017.

Re: Panthers/Bucs game a second ago. Has there been a single case this year where a team down 7 in the late 4th quarter scored a TD, went for 2 to take the lead rather than kicking to tie, and won the game? I can't remember one and I'm recalling several losses that way, including this game.

Mariah Carey's career

This obituary for Leia Organa is a work of art.

If you're up for a very long read, Slate has such a piece by Michael Lewis on Daryl Morey and the development, use, successes, and failures of analytics in analyzing basketball.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 31, 2016 -> 04:33 PM) A guy with outstanding stuff and poor control has never been something the White Sox have strayed away from. If the Pirates' offer is Meadows, Glasnow +, I have a hard time believing the deal hasn't been worked out yet. IMO, the Pirates are most likely balking on the first piece. IF the Pirates put Meadows on the table I think this would be done without Glasnow.