IlliniKrush

It would just be so much easier if Brantley posted in the thread i already created...

We all know it bounced. We just don't know where.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 02:44 PM) Hey Krush, I got another question for you. In game 1, Cabrera's take out slide of Tad when he basically stood up when Iguchi was releasing the ball, is that interference?? The actual slide was legal but because OC actually stood up when Tad was throwing the ball I wasn't sure if that's interference or not. To be honest i have to see the play again because i can hardly remember it. I know what you are speaking of, but after last night i can't remember details from game 1 well. I'll tell you this much though - interference is one of the toughest calls to make as an umpire, because it's not black and white. And umps usually hesitate to make it unless they are absolutely sure it's intereference. As far as standing up goes, it depends when in the slide he did it...if he was basically reaching the bag and doing a pop up slide because his foot had hit the bag already, i think he'd be fine there. But the general rule and what i've been tought by my association is that you have to slide (or just move out of the base line) so the throw can go through. You also can't throw your arms up, push him, etc. I'm not perfect on MLB rules, though.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 02:37 PM) Krush, if I was an angel fan, I'd be pissed at the ump and be pissed at Josh Paul and Escobar and basically the whole team cause they seemed to have lost their cool after that play took place. Here's the thing with the ump, I do honestly believe that ball hit the ground, on the other hand I'm mad at the ump for being indecisive and not knowing what the hell was going on. The way ump reacted and looked at Paul I think in his mind he still thought the ball was live but he didn't even think that his strike call would make that look so much like he was calling aj out. The thing also is that Kelvim lost his cool and hung a splitter and bam, Josh was trying to make up for the play and couldn't even get the ball out of his glove. If I'm an angels fan I'm pissed off at everybody and every thing, that being said, I honestly believe that was still the correct call. Ok sorry...what i meant by that was my posts as far as what i saw/think stay the same. Therefore, i'd certainly be pissed off, but i would try to post in the same manner, and explaining in the same way. You know what i mean?

QUOTE(The Ginger Kid @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 01:32 PM) I just watched the replay of the inning on MLB.TV Rowand struck out before AJ came to bat. He struck out on a ball in the dirt. Watch it if you can - the umpire does not pump his fist until JP tags out Rowand. Interesting that the same exact thing happened but the signals were different. Yeah this happened in a Molina at bat as well. Good observation, didn't remember the Rowand at bat.

This has certainly been a great thread, and it's been a lot of fun. I enjoy talking real baseball on here with great baseball minds and having intense debate. I thought this thread had to be started for obvious reasons. Thing is, i thought i might get flamed for making my opinion known because it showed zero bias towards the Sox. As an umpire, i'm trained to be unbiased. Furthermore, i've grown to absolutely despise those fans that think every call is out to get them and can't take their white sox sunglasses off before examining a play. If there's one thing i pride myself on it's being a fair, unbiased fan while watching a game. There are many times i'm at the Cell and i'll motion a fist for 'out' when a sox runner is called out and 40,000 people are just b****ing because it went against the sox, even though it's the right call. It's one thing to root for your team, it's another to look at every call from the aspect of 'does this help my team win' and they boo it or cheer it. It's just ignorant is all. I'm not going to put any words into anyone's mouths, but i'll leave you this to ponder. Throughout this thread, Rex and I (and a few others) have thrown around some great observations and reasons for our lines of thinking. Now - reverse the teams. This EXACT same thing happens to us, and we lose because of it. What do people honestly think? My posts would stay the exact same as would Rex's, and some others. I just hope people take one thing from this, and that it's ok to admit an ump blew a call**** if it actually helped your team. By the same token, it's ok to admit an ump got a call right if it went against your team (remember crede hbp in oakland earlier this year - that thread was long as well) ****This isn't in refrence to last night's play. This is just an overall observation.

So the pause on Molina without a fist means... I'm off to bed. This thread's been fun though. Let's go win Friday.

QUOTE(Spiff @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 02:08 AM) well apparently you didnt see a replay yet, because it appears as though he didnt go around. The problem with this is it's always a judgement call, there's no definite way to make the call. So if they said he went or they said he didn't, it's probly a decent call either way because it's so close, you know? Safe/Out is usually black and white, check swings aren't.

QUOTE(YASNY @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 02:03 AM) I have finished reading the thread since my first post, so there is no need to "rehash". But if he makes the same sequence of motions on strike two, how can it be interpretted as an out call? That makes no sense. By the same logic, if he does the same motion on strike three swinging calls and the batter is out (without any additional motion), how can it not mean strike three swining the batter is out. ESPN showed this a bunch of times. Also, again...on the Molina at bat, he did NOT signal a fist after he swung through a strike three and the ball hit the dirt. He waited til AJ tagged him, then did the fist, quite obviously for the out at that point.

IMO, Rowand and Crede were clearly out. Not by a mile certainly...but Crede's hand wasn't on that base by the time the catch was made. There was one angle that showed this really well. Umps were right on the spot today for those calls at least.

Just keep praying to em, and we'll see what happens.

QUOTE(Harry&JimmyRocked @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 01:59 AM) actually his extended arm is "no contact" and then he made the strike 3 signal. watching this guy all night, i believe if a.j. was out the ump would do the splitz and a spin ala enrico palatzo. Tell me you didn't only read the first post of this thread and respond

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 01:54 AM) Tell me about it. I keep getting im's from people just saying "BULLs***" like 20 times over and again. Whatever, I just want Friday to get here, tomorrow is going to be a long day. Yeah, i've received a few of these from cub land: SOX CAN'T WIN WITHOUT THE HELP OF THE UMPS

QUOTE(YASNY @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 01:52 AM) Still, he made the same sequence of motions on a strike two call, which by definition means it was not an out signal. Not based on what he did all game. I'm not about to re-hash what i've posted throughout this thing.

Rowand was clearly out. Crede was clearly out. Konerko may or may not have went, but he should have asked for help on the call.

But we'll have to listen to the controversy on TV for an entire off day, so that'll be fun...

If the Sox play the Cards, this campus will be absolutely nuts.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 01:44 AM) So basically after all this time we know absolutely nothing and unless we can somehow get a clear view I'm pretty sure that's the way it's going to stay. It was a controversial call but it's so close and Escobar hung his splitty and it got nailed. Like has been said that call didn't cost them a run but Pablo stealing 2nd and Joe nailing the hanger did. Hey don't ruin our fun We aren't even really debating whether the ball hit the dirt or not, we're debating the umpire's mechanics and throught process throughout the play.

Pulled this from the PTC board: Rules and Scoring: 1 pick per person per game. (so if there's a double header, you get 2 picks...one for each game) If the highest scoring player is not picked by anyone, then the next highest scoring player, who was picked by a contestant, wins. 1 pt per Base 1 pt per RBI 1 pt per RS 1 pt per SB (-1 pt per out in official AB, E, K, or CS, in case of tie only) A specific player can only be taken twice in one week. Picking a player for a 3rd time is the same as making no pick. Picks must be in by the first pitch of the game, no exceptions

QUOTE(YASNY @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 01:33 AM) I got tired of reading thru this thread, so I may repeat something here. Here's my take on it. First, when FOX zoomed in and showed the play in very slow motion, you can distinctly see the ball change direction upward. As for the fist pump, ESPN showed a call earlier in the game where the ump first indicated the batter swung thru the ball by extending his right arm, then followed with the same fist pump motion, which in this particular case indicated strike TWO. Whether or not that pump was percieved to be an out signal, that particular umpire used that motion to indicate a strike. The ball changing direction upwards doesn't mean a whole lot, as it could have occured inside the mitt. ESPN also showed quite a few replays on strike three calls where he did the arm and the fist pump. When Molina struck out and the ball hit the dirt, he did the arm...then nothing. AJ then tagged Molina, and then he did the fist. Based on the precedent he set over the course of the game, he used the wrong mechanics during the AJ at bat.

QUOTE(Rex Hudler @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 01:17 AM) I am off to bed, but I'll add one more thing.... Typically in that situation, if there is any uncertainty over whether the ball hit the ground, the umpire will allow the players reactions to dictate the call or look to the 1B or 3B umpire. That is a VERY difficult call for the home plate umpire to make. They didn't have cameras on the 1B or 3B umpires, but a trick umpires often use is if they see it, and the home plate umpire does not call it right away, they will point toward the ground or show a fist so the home plate umpire can get help. It is not an official appeal, just a signal to help the plate umpire. I'd like to see how they reacted initially. Yeah, i've been taught as a base umpire to do a fist for a catch and an open hand for no catch. They all have their tricks. If he was unsure at all, he should have waited/looked for help. As i mentioned above, i think he made the out call without thinking, then realized it was closer than he may have thought (ball hitting the dirt) so he let the play go on. What's ironic is that he could have asked for help, but what would that have done? We've all seen this on a blown up replay 50 times tonight, and we still can't say definitively what happened.

Those are very good questions. And this is just my opinion, which i've come to by thinking how Doug would have thought throughout the play...#6 is EXACTLY what happened.

QUOTE(NUKE_CLEVELAND @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 12:57 AM) Every goalie Ive ever heard talk about it said that they'd rather the D-Man play the pass and not mess with the puck carrier in a 2 on 1. A lot of times what happens is that if the D-Man goes for the puck carrier he ends up either screening the shot or a pass gets through to the wide open other guy and it ends up in the net. Do you realize we're agreeing here...?

It's just a general rule. Every single goalie would rather take the shooter in an isolated situation and not have to worry about stopping a one time shot off of a pass. There's no clear definition or trick to it, and every situation is different. But my original claim holds true.

QUOTE(knightni @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 12:30 AM) In related news... Yawney will probably be seeing this by December. Are you serious? I'll place a hefty wager on this, if you like.