IlliniKrush

Well the thing about Eddings' comments (and the other guys) is that they started talking about how they had looked at replay and started try to convince the media that it was inconclusive or had obviously bounced or what not. I thought that was a huge mistake. And overall Eddings just sounded like he was trying to talk his way out of a ticket or something. I realize it's not their job, though. I agree with your assessment of the "no call" on a third strike that hit the dirt. I just found what Paul said interesting. And the replays speak volumes about Eddings' mechanics over the courst of the game. The Angels argument holds up if MLB umpires (and i don't know this either) are supposed to say 'no catch'. Paul says they always do this. I can only think that since Paul didn't hear anything, he assumed the umpire ruled catch. I've been taught, like you, to say strike three, and just wait for something to happen. I always make sure to say strike three, batter's out quickly if i'm ruling him out on a close play in the dirt that i'm ruling is a catch.

QUOTE(Rex Hudler @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 12:18 AM) Thanks... I don't completely disagree with Krush, I just think there is a bigger issue. Paul didn't see the "fist" plain and simple. He was tossing the ball back to the mound anyway. So to me, that is not an issue. The play goes the same way with or without it. Just chalk it up to a weird play that went in our favor. Ozuna still had to steal 2B and Crede still had to hit the bad pitch from Escobar. If the Angels had not burned most of their bullpen already, maybe Escobar isn't in there to make that bad pitch?? Lots of what ifs.... This 'bigger issue' is a pretty good point you make. You're right, they could only argue that Escobar or someone else could have picked up the ball and threw it to first if they didn't think Eddings ruled him out already - which i think is a decent argument, because every Angel stopped. But Paul definitely wasn't thinking clearly. Rex, have you heard - timeout - i just heard Paul say "when it's not caught they are in our ear yelling 'no catch no catch' - so i don't know what to take of this. What i was going to ask is have you heard Eddings' comments in the press conference? Just wondering if you thought he sounded as terrible as i think he did.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Oct 13, 2005 -> 12:13 AM) Hey Rex...just wanted to say. Really appreciate your insight on the issue. Same with you Krush...the two have you done a great job explaining both perspectives and each of your opinions. Well that's what soxtalk is for, good baseball talk. This is about umpiring, but still very interesting. I'm glad Rex jumped in on this. One thing is for sure, this call will be debated forever across the nation, especially when the sox win this series.

The one thing that threw me off is that i thought i heard Paul at one point say "i didn't hear him say no catch"...which leads me to believe he did that before? I could be wrong on what Paul said, i've been flipping channels a lot. When they showed the replays i've been talking about, Eddings does the arm out, then fist, for easy strikeouts where the ball is for sure caught. There was on they showed where Molina struck out on a ball that bounced. Eddings did the arm out motion, and then sat there. AJ then tagged him. Then Eddings did the fist. This leads me to believe that the fist is his out call on a strike three swinging, and that he messed up the Angels by signaling 'out' when earlier he failed to do so and waited for a tag - on the Molina at bat. I agree 100% that Paul should have done the safe thing and tagged him, and give credit to AJ for hustling, because that can never hurt. And i know what you are saying about the field and the dirt. I still have no idea if it bounced in the mitt or on the dirt, but i know i've seen balls bounce in the mitt and appear like it has hit the ground.

Well, we don't control umps, don't blame us. Plus, that didn't win us the game. And we wouldn't have necessariliy lost if that call is reversed, quite obviously. And tell them a former Cub is pitching Friday - Garland.

QUOTE(Rex Hudler @ Oct 12, 2005 -> 11:52 PM) 2. The home plate umpire immediately put his right hand to the side, which is an indication that the play is still live. That clearly indicates to me that he thought the ball hit the ground and wasn't calling AJ out. Rex, the one thing i point to is that on BBTN they went back and looked at some strikeouts swinging by our batters. He did the exact same motion. Arm out for swung through, fist for out. If Eddings is trying to defend himself by saying "that's my strike call", on the two replays they showed, he would have went arm out, fist...another fist? or some sort of other motion? But he didn't. So that's kind of interesting. Also, though the ball changed direction, it could have done that in the mitt, easily. I still have no clue if it did or didn't, but if it hit dirt, you would have seen dirt fly, no? Also, Rex, i think Paul tossed the ball because he didn't say "no catch" or "no, no!" for the catch, something like that. I realize Paul didn't see the fist motion, but every other Angel did. It's good to hear some other perspective though.

In champaign, cards were on fox, sox on fx My buddy in Florida said the cards game was on fox and fx. Luckily, he has a dish and got it on fx2...i also had no clue it existed. But why would a game by on fox and fx in the same area?

QUOTE(bmags @ Oct 12, 2005 -> 11:08 PM) great... but yet the white sox won. be happy buddy. I am, dude. I'm just discussing baseball/umpiring. I'm not b****ing. It's good discussion, nothing more.

Well, BBTN went back and looked at tape. Found two different times where there was a strike three swinging on a sox batter. He went arm out, fist. In the same time frame (lazily). Same thing he did in the 9th.

QUOTE(TheHammer @ Oct 12, 2005 -> 10:50 PM) The fist pump doesnt mean out. He has to call him out. Fist pump is just a fist pump, its no official end all signal. The ump says thats his strike three motion, the two motions. It seems like he never made the out call. Now the play was called incorrectly, but he never did call AJ out. I'll tell you one thing. There's a reason every single Angel, to a man, was pissed. The ump used improper mechanics, and a lack of verbal cues.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Oct 12, 2005 -> 10:47 PM) I don't think there is any set out rule either because you can always change the ruling on a play. How is it any different than a guy being called out and than the umps discuss it and someone else has a better angle and says the ball was trapped. Different situation, yes, but I dont' think there is any set this is your out call. Afterall a lot of umps call different things different. I still say that hit the dirt so whether the ump motioned wrong or not, Paul should have made the tag (if its close you usually do so). Jas- It's different because you dictate how players react on a call like that. That's one of the immediate calls you have to make so the catcher knows if he needs to throw or not. Let's say there is a runner on 3rd or something...if he throws for s***s when the ump knows he's out but is slow on the call and throws it down the line and a run scores...that's on the ump. If the home plate umpire rules out, he's out. He could ask for help before calling him out, or signal to an umpire he needs help (or more so a base umpire will show a closed fist for yes, it was a catch or open hand for no, it hit dirt. Then the ump can make a call.

Something i just noticed - Pierzynski started running after the extended arm call meaning he swung through it. I think AJ thought that he wasn't going to rule him out, and started running. AJ never saw the fist call.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Oct 12, 2005 -> 10:41 PM) I believe they protested it immediately. I'm not an expert on protests, but i'm pretty sure nothing can happen as far as an official protest goes. It's similar to a safe/out call, etc. They can't appeal whether the ball hit the ground, they could only appeal something based off Eddings mechanics behind the plate. And i don't even know if that is possible.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 12, 2005 -> 10:39 PM) From what it sounds like is that the arm meant no contact and the call meant strike, and he does use that call all game so it's interesting. I still dont know if he caught it. Whoever that head ump guy dude is he seems to think that it hit the ground. They should have never, EVER said they went to replay to try to justify their ruling, and talk about whether or not it hit the ground.

Wow, Eddings had no clue what to say right there. And half of what he said is basically wrong. You don't rule strike with two different motions.

Eddings sure sounds like a guy who is trying to talk his way out of a mistake.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 12, 2005 -> 10:18 PM) Can't that be a strike call though? The extended arm means he swung through it for a strike. The fist can only mean out at that time. It wouldn't mean 'strike' again.

QUOTE(3E8 @ Oct 12, 2005 -> 10:17 PM) If you are correct, tune in to the Baseball Tonight crew. You will get a good laugh at how bad they're butchering this rule right now. I'm definitely correct. The fist doesn't mean he swung. The fist means two things at the same time: Caught (no dirt) and batter is out. It's not arm for swing and fist for he swung again. Also, when it's done so lacksadaisacal like that, it is signifying that the ump knows he caught it for sure. Once he ruled out instead of asking for help (and there are subtle ways to do this with the other umpires), he's out. The umpire then backtracked, for whatever reason. I don't know what's going to come out of his mouth, but he won't be able to sleep tonight. I still can't believe it. And i'm not b****ing. I'm just trying to help some people understand this. And i'm watching BBTN, they butched it badly.

Just to shed some light on this from an experienced plate umpire. Regardless of whether or not the ball hit the ground, the umpire ruled 'out.' An arm extended means strike 3, the fist means 'batter is out'. Once he does this, he CANNOT ask for help at all. He's out, regardless of whether the ball hit the dirt or whatever any other umpire says. I'll take it. Sox win. But this is the most ridiculous thing i've ever seen.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Oct 11, 2005 -> 10:39 PM) I'm not looking in hindsight, just trying to fathom how a team can look so good one day and so poor the next day. Just saying that because a lot of people have suddenly come up with this, is all.

QUOTE(Gene Honda Civic @ Oct 11, 2005 -> 10:39 PM) p-0wned, or however you say that LMAO. I think i'll end my visit on that.

QUOTE(redandwhite @ Oct 11, 2005 -> 10:36 PM) Being as hot as this team was, and resting for days, might have been a bad thing rather than a good thing as everybody thought. Hindsight is 20/20. Who really know what it was. I'm not gonna give em a pass on that excuse though. Not when you can't get signs from Cora, can't get a bunt down, etc.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Oct 11, 2005 -> 10:33 PM) There's a lot of b****ing krush. We're all frusterated by tonights game I'll guarantee you that. I actually feel like s*** right now, like literally don't feel good. Unfortunately this crap happens and we weren't sweeping are way through the playoffs. For the record for people saying we can't win in Anaheim, we were 2 and 2 out there this year...so enough with that excuse. This team came out flat today and with 3 days rest which is a ton for a baseball team it should have almost been expected, I was actually very nervous coming into this game for that exact reason. Yeah some are. I am talking more about the "f*** this guy and f*** that guy and this team is f***ing crap". I feel like you do man, especially because of how this loss happened. It was never a goal to sweep through the playoffs for me. As far as i'm concerned, the boston series is irrelevant at this point. We started the night 0-0, and i just wanted to win game 1. It has nothing to do with the previous series you know?

QUOTE(Reddy @ Oct 11, 2005 -> 10:28 PM) props to the Count how was Iguchi's throw not counted an error? Because you can't assume a DP

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Oct 11, 2005 -> 10:28 PM) One game at a time...one game at a time. Right now the Sox need to get back into a groove and go out and take care of business. They do that and this series will be notted at one, but thats what they need to focus on. And everyone b****ing and moaning, sit down, shut up, and enjoy the ride. This is White Sox baseball and they got some fight left in em. You can bet your asses they do. Jas not many are b****ing. Overall, people are just frustrated we beat ourselves. Every loss isn't the same. I'm more frustrated over this one than i would be a 'normal' loss. You just hate to give away games in the playoffs.