spiderman

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Feb 11, 2007 -> 05:20 PM) You're going to base your judgment of Vazquez on his inability to adjust to a league in 1 year? Wow, so someone isn't perfect in this world. There's a ton of indications that suggest he'll pitch reasonably well next year, and there's really only his head stopping him from becoming a shutdown ace. We'll see. What's more likely - Vazquez to pitch how he has the past several seasons (a 4th starter) or get his head straighted out, and develop into a shutdown ace ? I think we both know what's more likely to happen, but I hope you are right.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Feb 11, 2007 -> 03:00 AM) There isn't s*** that's clear at this point. And...Vazquez easily had the best peripherals last year out of any White Sox starter, so to say he's not good is ignorant. He's pitched one year for the White Sox, and hasn't pitched back to back years in the same league since 2002-2003. Vazquez is an underachiver. Yes, he has good stuff, and any given outing, can shut down an opposing team, but more often than not, he'll pitch good for the first few innings, and then fall apart. As a #4 starter, I'm fine with him, but since his time in Montreal, what has he done to make you think he'll be better than a #4 starter ?

Clearly, Detroit has the best starting rotation in the division - both in young arms and upside. The White Sox COULD have a nice rotation, but there are too many starters in there who are coming off of bad years (Buerhle, and Contreras to some extent) OR who just aren't that good (Vazquez and the 5th starter).

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Feb 9, 2007 -> 04:21 PM) I'd give it a 90% chance Crede is dealt next offseason. Fields is almost ready, and barring a major setback from him (and that's entirely possible), he's the 3Bman for the 2008 Sox. If not, I'd be surprised if a stopgap wasn't brought in. There's too much risk involved with resigning Crede - namely his back - but also his price compared to production. He's likely to get 5/$55, and that's just really not worth it for the Sox. Dye, Iguchi, and Buehrle are my bigger concerns for getting contract extensions. Dye is almost certainly gone, just because he's going to get like 4/$60, and I'm not sure that's entirely worth it, and Iguchi is almost a must to be resigned unless KW can pull off a deal for Orlando Hudson or Michael Young or someone such as that. Buehrle is a hometown favorite and a pretty durable starter, so he may be worth the money dished out, though that's not a certainty either. Having lived in the f'ing Dakotas all my life, I get used to watching 40 games a year on TV. It's just a hassle and a half to drive even 8 hours to Minneapolis to watch a game, let alone drive/fly to Chicago. You make a good argument that the White Sox can justify, for baseball reasons, why we should let Dye, Crede, and Iguchi leave via free agency, but I also think you have a pre-2005 White Sox mentality when we didn't have record crowds, and all these new revenue sources. There's no way we can afford to sign all of our players in this market, and you have to have younger players make their ways into the majors, but I also think it's crazy for Williams to potentially not sign any of our free agents because of the market. The market is what it is, and all teams are playing by it so I'm hoping that Williams/Sox coaches can develop our young talent, and allow us to supplement them with our top veteran players.

Did the White Sox increase the payroll from last season ? It's in the mid-90's with about 7 players undetermined, and am I to assume that the payroll with the full 25 man roster will be in the neighborhood of 97-98 ?

QUOTE(Hatchetman @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 12:14 PM) if he's the long term 3B solution, that would be a dumb idea. Who (Crede or Fields) are you referring to ? Personally, I want Crede signed long-term, but I understand why the White Sox wouldn't do so with the $$$ he'll want, the back issue (potentially), and Fields being a top prosepct.

QUOTE(Steff @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 09:03 AM) H, you were sitting right next to me when it was confirmed that this was not a media creation from the horses father's mouth. The Sox need to keep their mouths shut about s*** that doesn't concern the fans. Financial negotiations are none of our business until they result in the player staying or going. This Sox fan wont tolerate personal s*** being printed in the paper and then the GM needing to apologize for anything. This is the FOURTH year I have commented about Kenny's mouth. He seemed to get the message from yesterday's meeting. I say he forgets before spring training though... The White Sox probably should be more discreet about contract talks, but I don't recall actual numbers being thrown around in the media, just Williams suggesting that this will be Buerhle's last season with the Sox because of the current market. I appreciate that Williams is so outspoken - it obviously puts him in bad situations though from time to time when he is asked repeatedly about those words. QUOTE(Hangar18 @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 09:07 AM) After this weekend, I can clearly see how there is 3 sides to a story ...... KW might be a bit frustrated at discussions with Buehrle on a new contract, but at the same time he has to keep on keeping on, thats his job. I do see that if thinks its going nowhere, lets go ahead and prepare for the post-Buehrle era. I think that's what Williams has been doing all off-season (preparing for the future) by acquiring so many high-end pitching prospects since it appears fairly certain that Buerhle will be gone after this season.

QUOTE(Hangar18 @ Jan 29, 2007 -> 08:57 AM) I can say this for sure .......... after discussing this very topic ............ The media is a bit responsible for making things a bit worse than they might really be .......... HOWEVER, I made sure to point out ........... that the SOX have needed to be a bit more forthcoming not only to the Media, but to the Fans as well. SOX fans wont tolerate being treated as if we dont know whats going on, and unfortuneately only few in the Media here are aware of this fact. Let us come to our conclusions and let the chips fall where they may. This person agreed. I don't blame the media for this at all - they simply reported what Williams has said about Buerhle's free agent status next season. Kenny can try and downplay what he said, blame the media for overhyping it, but he said what he said.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jan 28, 2007 -> 11:53 PM) I'd agree with the reasoning behind it, and I'm not going to argue for my reasoning, because I think it's pretty clear for the reasoning behind keeping either of them long-term. You'd have to figure Garland is going to be more consistent over the life of the contract he receives than Buehrle will be, but I'll take the upside and sidedness of where Buehrle throws from over the consistency and (better) durability of Garland. It's all a matter of opinion, really. (I still wouldn't rule out resigning both, but I'll put the odds at not-good) I'd say there's about a 15% chance of either Buerhle or Garland being back after their contracts expire. The way this increases is if Kenny's 5th starter spot, with all the prospects, becomes a revolving door, and nobody steps up. If that happens, then we would enter next offseason with no #5, and one of our top pitchers leaving - and maybe some pressure on Williams to keep the top part of his rotation intact.

QUOTE(Kalapse @ Jan 28, 2007 -> 05:57 PM) Quite the crock of s***. Just some food for thought. The key to your 1-0 smallball victory is the 0. You need the pitching to shutout the opponent inorder for this to work, something the starting pitching did in '05 but couldn't in '06. As for the all or nothing score 13 runs then nothing for 2 games theory. That amazing small ball team of '05 was shutout by the opponent a total of 7 times quite the accomplishment for an offense that prides itself on eeking a run or 2 accross the plate each game. Of course the '04-esque long ball stylings of the '06 team must have been shutout atleast 7 times but probably more right? Because a team that 'only hit HRs' can not consistantly score runs day in and day out. Well they were only shutout 6 times last year which isn't great but was still better than the Awesome Ozzieball of '05. Like Tony said, it takes great pitching for the smallball approach to work. If the starting pitching is holding the opponent down to 3 or less runs most every day then the offense can maybe get away with scoring 1-3 runs a game but when the pitching sucks like it did last year and 5 or 6 runs are crossing the plate on most days then the smallball approach is not going to work, you're going to need the 3 run HRs to come along. If the Sox would have gotten similar production from the pitching staff in '06 like they did '05 they would have won 95+ games and the division because of that oft-explosive HR heavy offense. And this may be said each time this subjected it debated but it definitely bares repeating it's not like the '05 didn't hit HRs, they still hit 200 that season which isn't exactly smallball, it's a lot closer to inept ball. This is all well and true, but if we don't get great pitching like we did during the WS season, then we will need a more consistent offense - not just waiting on 3 run HR's.

My biggest problem with the team: Kenny did NOTHING to addrees the offense, which had turned into previous versions of a HR happy and dependent team that didn't score runs otherwise. They could score 12 runs in one game, but the rest of the week would combine for that. They come into the season with a questionable lead-off hitter, and holes on offense in LF, CF, and SS. My most intrigue: Bullpen - it's unproven, but can be potentially very good. Lots of good arms, and I'm excited/optimisitic about turning over a close game to the bullpen. Again, I'm not annointing them for anything of yet, but there is a lot of talent in there. Rotating 5th starter ?: Kenny doesn't think so as he's in love with Gavin Floyd's potential, and he'll be the leader for that spot. I hope he's right, and I also hope he's not falling in love with the potential so many of those pitchers he has acuqired without them actually producing. Back to Floyd - if he has an ERA under 5.00, I'd consider it a successful season from the 5th spot.

QUOTE(Whitewashed in @ Jan 28, 2007 -> 12:14 PM) Big quote right there. The more KW opened his mouth the more he hurt the organization in situations like this. Hopefully they really try to hammer out a deal. Sounds to me like Kenny is blaming the media for what he said....Yeah, he could change the way he talks about upcoming free agents, but don't say something publicly, and then complain about it later when the media/public calls him on it.

It is disapointing that we have key free agents upcoming, Dye and Buerhle next year, Garland and Crede the year after, and I have little confidence, outside of Dye where I think we have a questionable chance, to sign our free agents. I know we can't keep everyone, but we didn't spend any money in free agency (for good reason), and now appear that it's unlikely to keep our own free agents as well. I liked what Williams did this off-season, giving us lot of young pitching with good upside, but I thought this would be complimented with us using our revenues (great home attendance and new money from the CBA deal) to sign our own free agents. Instead we sound like a mid-market team with the "market is too rich for our team" comments - again, I realize we can't sign everyone, but it seems as if the White Sox are committed to rebuilding the team over the next few seasons, while not competing in the current market conditions and depending on their younger players. It sounds like a good strategy - controlled costs, young players with something to prove, but I'm bothered that we seem unwilling to bend at all on players who should still be here in the future - Buerhle, Crede, Dye - to compliment our younger players.

QUOTE(SuperSteve @ Jan 23, 2007 -> 11:12 PM) With this signing, I think it more than just to play. He is a veteran who could help Brin Anderson. Who would you rather have him learning from, Pods or Erstad? He's an insurance policy with a chance to earn more playing time. If you end up not like Erstad, look at Brian Anderson and Scott Podsednik - if they're injured/ineffecitve, Erstad will be playing a lot more than you're probably hoping for.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 13, 2007 -> 12:06 PM) The way I have taken things, I don't think the Sox are that blown away by the $$$ that is being given out this off-season. It's the years. I don't think the Sox have any problem giving out a big money deal, but they don't want it over 5 or 6 years, and I don't blame them. Dave Roberts is 34, and coming off his best season. Did you really want him for 3 more years? I don't blame the Sox for not wanting Roberts when he is 37. I alsp don't really want to be paying 8.5 million in 2011 to Juan Pierre, do you? The Sox are trying to be as financially responsible as possible, and sometimes that can look bad. Your post was why I was fine with Williams bringing back Podsednik - in my mind, there wasn't any much differnce between some of these players and Podsednik, and it's a lot less $$$$, so, I'm not upset at all that the White Sox didn't go on the market and get involved with some of these deals. I do think, based on several of Williams' comments that the White Sox were surprised by the money being thrown around - he decided to reload his pitching stafff for that very reason. I agree the years definitely come in on this, but we're also not going to afford 3 or 4 starting pitchers at huge money. I guess I'm a little frustrated that we haven't increased our payroll this season, and I'm even more concerned about the future budgets. I think Williams is doing a good job of getting as many top prospects together, and hopefully 2 or 3 of them will pan out.

I do worry some about the payroll - not necessarily this season, but next season, when Buerhle appears gone, Dye's questionable to return, and the White Sox don't seem inclined to go after upper tier free agents because of the big money contracts. I know I'm going to hear that the payroll is $100 million this season, but I can't help but wonder, with the attendence close to 3 million, the WS victory still recent, and new revenue coming from the CBA, yet we continue to hear that we can't keep our premier players or bid for others in free agency. This is not meant as a bash to Kenny Williams- I trust his judgment, and I agree with his hands-off approach to free agency this off-season, I just have some questions about the FUTURE payroll of this team. Am I offbase in my concern ? Why or why not ? to sign no more than a 4 year deal. If that's the case, I think Dye will be in the $15 million a year range.

Chicago Tribune Link Sox general manger Ken Williams has had talks with Dye's agent, Bob Bry, about an extension before free agency but isn't sure he wants to commit that much money to one player. "There's no doubt we have strong interest in bringing him back, but those are numbers where we have to take a step back and wrestle with them," Williams said. "Once you do these deals, if you are wrong, they can cripple the club with ramifications for a lot of years. "But this guy has been the consummate professional on and off the field. We just have to consider all the variables." **** Chicago Tribune Link It should not be surprising that Sox general manager Ken Williams will not try to re-sign the team's recognized pitching leader after giving him a chance for an extension last spring. "With the market as it is, I don't anticipate making that overture again," Williams said recently. In other words Buehrle's $9.5 million this year will be his last salary from the Sox, who should have younger (and cheaper) options by next season. It will be the end of an era on the South Side, with Buehrle having helped usher in the new winning feeling in 2000. With free-agent-to-be Freddy Garcia traded for young pitching, why didn't Williams also trade free-agent-to-be Buehrle instead of young Brandon McCarthy? "Because there's nothing out there that would give us an equal chance and set us up for the future," Williams said of what he would have received in return for Buehrle, 12-13 last season. "I think [buehrle] is going to have his best year ever. "The bottom line, and maybe it has been lost in transition, is that we're still focused on winning in '07. As it stood at the end of [last] season, we would have been taking $50 million for a rotation out of a $100 million payroll. It just wasn't going to work."

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jan 7, 2007 -> 05:30 AM) I said the sox should ante up a deal as high as 5 yrs and $75 mill. More than that and it's crazy money. The sox acquired arms to give them options. I'm sure they'd like to re-sign Mark to a air, reasonable contract. But not at Zito type money and length. Prepared to be disapointed if you think the White Sox are going to give any pitcher a 5 year deal. The most they will give is 3 years, and I think their definition of bending is a team option on a 4th year.

QUOTE(shawnhillegas @ Jan 6, 2007 -> 11:21 PM) I just cant understand why you wouldnt sign 1 guy to anchor the staff. Yeah the market sucks, but pay out the big bucks for 1/5th of the rotation and develop the rest through intelligent trades and better scouting. But if there is a man to sign, its Mark (provided he rebounds). I'm on board with you, but the White Sox have, what they believe to be, valid reasons for not overpaying (in their belief) for starting pitching, and, I think in a lot of cases, I think they are right.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jan 6, 2007 -> 09:48 PM) Oh yes The only thing he has in common with Garland is that they're were drafted out of high school and got traded. His numbers don't even compare to those of Garland in the minors. What kind of year do you see Floyd having, should the White Sox give him 30 starts ?

QUOTE(fathom @ Jan 6, 2007 -> 09:31 PM) I can't believe that after all the talk of how pitching wins championships, and KW's acquisition of Vazquez last year, that we're looking at going into the season with Gavin Floyd as our 5th starter. I'm assuming you feel that this is a bad thing, correct ?

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Jan 6, 2007 -> 08:55 PM) Because, Mark Buehrle is 28 years old. He's just comign into his prime. He doesn't throw hard or with a lot of torque on his arm. He doesn't deserve 7 years, $126 million, but then again, no pitcher does. If the Sox could give him 4-5 years for maybe $14 - $16 mil per...I think that would be good. If he turns it down...he turns it down...but I think the Sox should try. He isn't 38, he's 28 people. OK, that sounded great, but back to how the White Sox do business, specifically in regards to pitchers. Do we really expect the White Sox to offer him a 4 or 5 year deal given that they don't do that currently for pitching contracts ????? If you read my previous post, I'm in agreeance with you - I also want Buerhle back, but someone's going to have to bend, and considering the White Sox contract length policy (or restrictions) to pitchers, what they will be willing to pay, and the stock of young arms in the minors, I think Burrhle would have to take a contract in the White Sox mold, probably a 3 year deal in the 35 million range.

I'm more concerned with his defense than his offense, but, now in his 2nd full season, I expect him to strike out less, and improve that avg to the .250-.260 mark.

QUOTE(Straycats @ Jan 6, 2007 -> 10:01 AM) my lineup would be 1 Rocco Baldelli CF (Gio and Mc Cullogh was traded to T Bay) 2 Omar Visquel SS ( Phillips and Owens traded to SF) 3 Jim Thome DH 4 Paul Konerko 1B 5 Jermaine Dye RF 6 AJ C 7 Joe Crede 3B 8 Tadahito Iguchi 2B 9 Scott Podsednik LF We're not trading Gio Gonzalez, and probably any of our higher ranked young pitchers. QUOTE(WilliamTell @ Jan 6, 2007 -> 07:25 PM) LF Podsednik 2B Iguchi 1B Konerko DH Thome RF Dye 3B Crede C Pierzynski SS Uribe CF Anderson seems kinda like last year. That looks right on, and here's hoping that we won't be so damn HR dependent, and we can actually manufacture some runs. Given how HR dependent we were last season in the 2nd half (especially) I'm rather shocked that, to this point, the lineup from last year is still intact.

QUOTE(beck72 @ Jan 6, 2007 -> 08:38 PM) From Mark's point of view, he should be well compensated next yr. He's been one of the most consistent SP's in baseball. He looks around the league and sees crap pitchers getting over 5 yr $55 mill deals, why shouldn't he look for the best deal out there for him and his family. A normal, good yr in 2007 should net Mark at minimum a 4, 5 yr deal worth $60-75 mill. The sox should ante up--provided he returns to form this yr. Which IMO, he will. Yet they shouldn't get too crazy in terms of money or length beyond what I suggested above. Why should the White Sox ante up if they feel their prospects can carry the load? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of acquiring all these young arms ? I'd love to have Buerhel here long-term, and I think the Whie Sox probably do as well, but I don't see them bending very much considering they are so high on their prospects, and KW has spoken at length about how out of control the market is.