Lillian

The young players may, or may not develop fast enough for this team to compete this year. However, even if they do, the line up is still missing a left handed, impact bat. I'm still very uncomfortable depending upon Dunn to provide the only left handed balance, in the heart of the order. Unfortunately, with the new acquisitions, it's hard to see where they now have room to add that LH bat. Whose place would that player take?

QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 18, 2013 -> 01:35 PM) It's still all too early but... I assume Rodon goes number one and I pray Hoffman gets passed on at two. Whom would you take if Hoffman goes second?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 26, 2013 -> 04:47 PM) Reading the translation of this, and then applying some common sense, it looks like they are going to use him as an OF. My thoughts are in the brackets. http://www.liderendeportes.com/Noticias/Be..._medium=twitter Yes, a "jardinero" is Spanish for both a gardener, and an outfielder.

QUOTE (beautox @ Dec 18, 2013 -> 06:17 AM) With Hahn and the advanced scouts doing a great job reloading the ml team with real talent that has upside, and MI being a relative strength for the sox: Semien, Sanchez, Anderson, Johnson. I would prefer the sox go with what they can develop very effectively, pitching. I doubt Rodon is there at 3 but Hoffman has top of the rotation stuff to compliment Sale and Quintana, knowing the sox philosophy as well, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to see him fast tracked. I agree, and the fact that Hoffman is a RH starter is another plus. Sale, Quintana and Hoffman would look pretty solid at the top of the rotation in a couple of years.

In keeping with Hahn's plan of building a solid core for the future; why not "give" Dunn to Houston, or any team for that matter, in exchange for another young player who could fill a long term need for the Sox? Just pay whatever portion of the last year of Dunn's contract, that team wants, in return for a young player who fits in the front office's 3 to 5 year plan. What portion of Dunn's contract the Sox would pay would be a function of how good the prospect is. Perhaps Stassi would be a name that might meet that description, and provide a solution to the catching void. With Castro, the Astros don't need another young catcher: http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/...ect-max-stassi/

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Dec 18, 2013 -> 02:04 AM) I disagree. I think you draft for need when there is no consensus pick. If a consensus top 5 pick falls to pick 20, then you go ahead and take him. But if you are the #3 pick and mock drafts have 3-4 different names going there, you can pick based on position if your scouting reports have them all going that high. I mean, it's hard to compare a pitcher to a 1B, for instance. That is a very compelling argument, with which I totally agree. I don't know why people don't concur. Everyone talks about what a "crap shoot" the baseball amateur draft is, and then they proceed to insist that "you take the best available talent". "Best talent" based upon what exactly? Of course, it will be a while before some of the draftees would be ready to be added to the roster, and it's true that the roster could look very different. However, why continue to stock pile a particular position, when you might have a choice to add a player where there is an obvious dearth of future candidates in your organization? As long as there is no clear consensus as to who is the third best talent in the draft, why not pick one of the top candidates based, at least in part, upon perceived needs?

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Dec 15, 2013 -> 08:21 AM) He won't have any success starting in the majors, it's not going to happen. If you're right, I'd rather that the Sox not waste a roster spot on him. Under those circumstances, I assume that you would rather see L. Garcia as the utility infielder, given his stellar defense. Semien should get another year at AAA, unless he's going to start.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 15, 2013 -> 06:43 AM) Because you are basing his ability as a 2 hole hitter on one year in AAA in a league that is very offense. In the major leagues, albeit a very small sample size with 2 teams that thought so much of his ability to bat second, they waived him, his splits as a 2 hole hitter are pitcher-like, .135/.200/.362. Posters are being far more realistic that if he sticks, it is because he has the ability to play several positions, which could give him a place on the bench. Elmore as a regular player is most likely a disaster. For a guy with supposed 2 hole skills, and again I realize sample size is small, his stats don't back it up. He hits over .500 swinging at the first pitch, and under .200 when not. If he was 22-23 years old, there probably could be reason for more optimism, but he is only 9 months younger than Gordon Beckham and not nearly as polished. It is way more likely he is what he is. Well, that stat is a little sobering. If it's not a function of the small sample size, that would certainly refute my argument. The kinds of skills to which I referred are some of the more "translatable" skills in baseball. The ability to take pitches, draw walks, bunt, and hit behind the runner are skills that players should be able to execute, as they progress up through the various levels of play. They are not the kinds of skills that are likely to disappear with tougher competition. Of course, we would have to expect his numbers to be significantly diminished, however is it so unreasonable to expect him to be able to still execute the tasks I listed, with respectable proficiency? I just checked his Major League split stats on hitting in various batting order slots. He has only had 37 career at bats, in the #2 hole. While those results were awful, the sample size is way to small. Maybe the problem was that Arizona and Houston didn't use him correctly. My argument is that if he is to have any significant success, it would likely be as a number 2 hitter.

It seems that most of you feel that Elmore's main asset is his unusual ability to play every position, thus automatically relegating him to a utility man. While that skill is useful, I had the impression that his best skill was his ability to execute the tasks of a number two hole hitter. His ability to bunt, take and foul off pitches, hit behind the runner and the other things about which Brett Butler raved, are the tools that intrigued me. Think of it this way; the Sox have been using Ramirez and Beckham in the two hole. Neither of them is very good at those skills, and neither sports a respectable OBP. Given the chance, which most here feel will not happen, it would be interesting to see how Elmore would compare, in those respects.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 03:42 PM) http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=29486543&c_id=mlb http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=28672435&c_id=mlb There's a big hitch in his swing and it's rather long. If he hit .250 over a full season, I'd be surprised. He's not going to have good plate coverage and he'll have to choose whether he is looking in or out. Guys like Konerko in his prime hit .300...they can be looking in yet have a quick and strong enough swing to poke balls to center and right. Elmore does not have that. I do see a little Zobrist in the swing, but he's also a switch hitter. Either way, I don't think he's a starter. Thank you for posting the video. However, I must respectfully disagree with the perception that they show a "hitch" in his swing. It appears to be nothing more than his waiting on an off speed pitch. The videos show him staying closed, keeping his hands back, and then swinging with good results. It looks just fine. He is probably very limited in his raw talent, and he certainly is not going to hit for power, but his purported skill as a number 2 hole hitter is what has some of us intrigued.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 04:51 PM) I think the one thing you can see is that guys are more comfortable around the other and can play a little better. Still, talent levels being what they are at that level, you are just not going to see a .240 guy suddenly start hitting .320 because he's back with his buddy. I hope that you're not suggesting that he is a ".240 hitter" based upon the 120 at bats he had last year with the Astros.

QUOTE (ScottyDo @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 04:36 PM) Baseball is an extraordinarily segmented and discrete game. I really doubt there was any real synergy between the two, much less that they will be able to replicate anything at the Major League level. Certainly Elmore should have to earn playing time and it should have nothing at all to do with Eaton. This quote was taken from the article which I mentioned, and linked in my opening post: "Reno leadoff man Adam Eaton, second to his teammate in batting average at .390, and Elmore have worked so well together that they have signs among themselves – give a pitch or two to steal second base, let’s work a hit-and-run. Butler has seen times when Elmore intentionally fouled a ball off after Eaton got a bad jump off first base on a stolen base attempt." While I generally agree with you about baseball being a very individual oriented, team sport, there are some places for team work.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 04:12 PM) It seems to completely be a coincidence. They didn't target Elmore, the picked him up off waivers in November after the Astros (the Astros!) didn't want him. He adds a cushion in middle infield in the event that Beckham or Ramirez or (please!) Keppinger were/are traded this offseason. He won't be given the second base job over Beckham. As for Eaton, every team in baseball would have wanted him a year ago. Hahn wisely bought low after the arm injury and after Pollock supplanted Eaton as the Dbacks CF. Perhaps it is just a coincidence. However, I'd still like to see what they could do together, reunited. He wouldn't have to replace Beckham on the roster, but could be more valuable the Gillaspie, if Beckham moved to third, which was what I was suggesting.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 03:11 PM) Of course I would take that, but .......... It's amazing the DBacks waived him if they thought so highly of him, and then the next year, the Astros, who can use all the good players they can get waived him as well. He had a great year at Reno, but it's really stacked against him just being a regular on a major league team. Well, I guess that I have a lot more respect for Brett Butler's opinion, than I do for Arizona's GM, especially when it comes to evaluating 2 hole hitters.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 02:54 PM) If the Sox were playing next year in AAA, I'd say give it a whirl. 2 organizations have given up on him even though he only costs them the minimum. I'd say the odds of him being the same player in the major leagues that he was at Reno are beyond slim. I agree that the odds are very great that he won't put up the .344 average, or .442 OBP, which he produced hitting behind Eaton at Reno, in 2012. But, who says he as to perform at that astounding level to be good enough to bat second on the White Sox? I'd take a .300 average, a .375 OBP, and the ability to execute the hit and run, as well as take and foul off pitches. Wouldn't you? Hey, maybe you should be debating this point with Brett Butler. He is the one who raved about his ability as a number two hitter. As far as the other "two organizations which have given up on him", he has never really had a chance to show what he can do at the Major League level. Moreover, he now would have the unique opportunity to work with his former lead off hitter, Eaton. That was the time that he was so good. Again, the two of the them together, are what apparently made it all work so well. There was that description of how they even had signs between them. It would be hard to believe that Hahn and front office aren't fully aware of, and intrigued by the possibilities. Well, I had intended to "rest my case", but I'll continue to debate the issue, as long as there are counter arguments to giving this experiment a try.

Thanks for all of the comments. I rest my case. We'll all just have to wait until Spring Training to see what the Sox do with this potential "Dynamic Duo". I'm looking forward to it.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 02:27 PM) Elmore is 9 months younger than Beckham and in over 200 plate appearances in the major leagues has put up a .588 OPS. He also was waived by the worst team in baseball. Maybe he can stick as a versatile reserve, but why base anything on what he did in AAA? Look at Beckham's minor league numbers. I don't get your love. He doesn't even hit left handed. My "love" is based upon his specialized skill as a #2 hole hitter, which is a unique offensive role. A left handed hitter, per se, has never been an issue with me. It is the need for a left handed, middle of the order bat, to break up the succession of right handed hitters, about which I have written so often. In fact, for a number 2 hitter, batting from the right side can be an advantage because he has a better look at the runner on first. He also has a bigger hole to hit in, providing he can take the ball the other way, a skill at which I suspect Elmore is quite adept. I'm very intrigued by the way he worked so well with Eaton, in front of him. Don't you agree that the ability to foul off pitches, work the count and take walks are skills that translate well to the Big Leagues? Beckham has more potential, but he has never demonstrated that he can hit in the 2 hole. They are different players. If Eaton and Elmore could work some magic at the top of the order, and set the table for Abreu, ?, Garcia, Viciedo and whoever else the Sox stick in the heart of the order, the offense could be very interesting.

QUOTE (sammy esposito @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 12:57 PM) The greatest of Elmore stats is the small amount of homers,1 compared to lhis RBI total 73. He might not be powerful but clutch is good. Good point. Here's another stat that is note worthy: In his Minor League career, he has 304 walks vs. 303 strike outs, in 2,414 plate appearances. How often do you see a stat like that?

The Sox don't exactly have world beaters at either second or third. It shouldn't be that hard to find a place for Elmore. Keppinger adds very little, and Beckham could play third, if the Sox want to keep him. Even if this is not Hahn's plan, I can see it at least being tried as an experiment. Imagine Eaton and Elmore going to Ventura, in Spring Training, and telling him how they worked together as an effective tandem at the top of the order. Wouldn't Robbin want to see what they could do? From what I read, these two "grinders" would be the closest thing to the way Louie Aparicio and Nellie Fox used to drive opponents crazy with the way they could execute the "hit and run", at the top of the order. What fond memories?

Here is another assessment of Elmore's skills: http://www.crawfishboxes.com/2013/2/4/3948...elmore-start-at It doesn't sound like he has the arm to play the "hot corner". Second base looks like his best position. The more I think about this potential plan of batting Eaton and Elmore at the top of the order, the more I suspect that this has been Hahn's plan. They quietly acquired Elmore and now Eaton, whom they admittedly had targeted. That can't be a coincidence. This may be a case of the "whole being greater than the sum of its parts". These two "grinders" worked so notably well together at the top of Reno's lineup in 2012. They are both the kind of players that Hahn has said he would like to have; high on base percentage, contact hitters, who can take a walk and not strike out much. Elmore would likely be a better 2 hole hitter than either Beckham or Ramirez, neither of whom has ever put up high OBP's, or demonstrated any particular acumen for that specific role. If Elmore were to play second, Beckham would be the likely trade candidate, unless they moved him to third. Under that scenario, Ramirez might be worth retaining for his defense. I doubt that the Sox would be comfortable with a double play combination of Beckham at SS and Elmore at 2B. Keppinger should be moved, in any case, if possible. Semien probably gets a year at AAA.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 09:18 AM) I have always really liked Eaton in general but playing in Reno can really help a hitter. The ball flies out of that place. May have something to do with the success even though I really do like Eaton and think it's a great move. I'm sorry, but the logic here escapes me. Neither Eaton nor Elmore are home run hitters, so why would this be a factor?

Those who are comparing Elmore to Beckham, or complaining about his lack of power to play third, may be missing the point. Elmore's role would be to serve as an effective number 2 hole hitter, and add more speed and OBP to the top of the order. I think that most would agree, that is something that Sox teams have missed since Pods and Iguchi worked so well together. To quote Brett Butler from the article, to which I provided the link: "He’s the best two-hole hitter I’ve ever had. Ever.” If Elmore could foul off pitches, work the count, give Eaton a better chance to steal, bunt, get on base, and steal a base himself, that would represent a significant asset to the offense.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 08:18 AM) I was thinking the same thing, didn't wanna post it though because I wanna believe Eaton is a .300+/.350+ guy. I guess the only difference is Elmore never made a top prospect list. Here are the stats for the PCL's 2012 season: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/l...cgi?id=0dccdf2c Here are the same stats for the International League's 2012 season: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/l...cgi?id=8300bf39 The walks per 9 innings were identical for the League, at 3.4, so that doesn't suggest that their high OBP's were a function of "wild pitching" opponents. If these numbers suggest that Eaton and Elmore were just exploiting terrible pitching, and bad control, then you'll have to find the evidence, and draw your own conclusions.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 08:05 AM) The author called Elmore a "dirtbag". Hahn called Eatona "dirtbag". Coincidence ? I think not. Very grindy stuff. You're right, and the use of that term by both Hahn and the author of the article was one of the things that made me think there might be a bigger master plan here. Wouldn't Eaton and Elmore be a refreshing change for our miserable OBP top of the order hitters?

Perhaps Hahn has bigger plans for Jake Elmore than most fans think: http://www.foxsportsarizona.com/06/20/12/R...?blockID=749442 Eaton and Elmore were team mates at Reno, and were on base "machines" at the top of the order: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/t...cgi?id=1c0d7c8a Hahn may be thinking that Elmore could play third, and bat second in the order. There just may be "a method to Hahn's madness".