Lillian

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 02:27 PM) Elmore is 9 months younger than Beckham and in over 200 plate appearances in the major leagues has put up a .588 OPS. He also was waived by the worst team in baseball. Maybe he can stick as a versatile reserve, but why base anything on what he did in AAA? Look at Beckham's minor league numbers. I don't get your love. He doesn't even hit left handed. My "love" is based upon his specialized skill as a #2 hole hitter, which is a unique offensive role. A left handed hitter, per se, has never been an issue with me. It is the need for a left handed, middle of the order bat, to break up the succession of right handed hitters, about which I have written so often. In fact, for a number 2 hitter, batting from the right side can be an advantage because he has a better look at the runner on first. He also has a bigger hole to hit in, providing he can take the ball the other way, a skill at which I suspect Elmore is quite adept. I'm very intrigued by the way he worked so well with Eaton, in front of him. Don't you agree that the ability to foul off pitches, work the count and take walks are skills that translate well to the Big Leagues? Beckham has more potential, but he has never demonstrated that he can hit in the 2 hole. They are different players. If Eaton and Elmore could work some magic at the top of the order, and set the table for Abreu, ?, Garcia, Viciedo and whoever else the Sox stick in the heart of the order, the offense could be very interesting.

QUOTE (sammy esposito @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 12:57 PM) The greatest of Elmore stats is the small amount of homers,1 compared to lhis RBI total 73. He might not be powerful but clutch is good. Good point. Here's another stat that is note worthy: In his Minor League career, he has 304 walks vs. 303 strike outs, in 2,414 plate appearances. How often do you see a stat like that?

The Sox don't exactly have world beaters at either second or third. It shouldn't be that hard to find a place for Elmore. Keppinger adds very little, and Beckham could play third, if the Sox want to keep him. Even if this is not Hahn's plan, I can see it at least being tried as an experiment. Imagine Eaton and Elmore going to Ventura, in Spring Training, and telling him how they worked together as an effective tandem at the top of the order. Wouldn't Robbin want to see what they could do? From what I read, these two "grinders" would be the closest thing to the way Louie Aparicio and Nellie Fox used to drive opponents crazy with the way they could execute the "hit and run", at the top of the order. What fond memories?

Here is another assessment of Elmore's skills: http://www.crawfishboxes.com/2013/2/4/3948...elmore-start-at It doesn't sound like he has the arm to play the "hot corner". Second base looks like his best position. The more I think about this potential plan of batting Eaton and Elmore at the top of the order, the more I suspect that this has been Hahn's plan. They quietly acquired Elmore and now Eaton, whom they admittedly had targeted. That can't be a coincidence. This may be a case of the "whole being greater than the sum of its parts". These two "grinders" worked so notably well together at the top of Reno's lineup in 2012. They are both the kind of players that Hahn has said he would like to have; high on base percentage, contact hitters, who can take a walk and not strike out much. Elmore would likely be a better 2 hole hitter than either Beckham or Ramirez, neither of whom has ever put up high OBP's, or demonstrated any particular acumen for that specific role. If Elmore were to play second, Beckham would be the likely trade candidate, unless they moved him to third. Under that scenario, Ramirez might be worth retaining for his defense. I doubt that the Sox would be comfortable with a double play combination of Beckham at SS and Elmore at 2B. Keppinger should be moved, in any case, if possible. Semien probably gets a year at AAA.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 09:18 AM) I have always really liked Eaton in general but playing in Reno can really help a hitter. The ball flies out of that place. May have something to do with the success even though I really do like Eaton and think it's a great move. I'm sorry, but the logic here escapes me. Neither Eaton nor Elmore are home run hitters, so why would this be a factor?

Those who are comparing Elmore to Beckham, or complaining about his lack of power to play third, may be missing the point. Elmore's role would be to serve as an effective number 2 hole hitter, and add more speed and OBP to the top of the order. I think that most would agree, that is something that Sox teams have missed since Pods and Iguchi worked so well together. To quote Brett Butler from the article, to which I provided the link: "He’s the best two-hole hitter I’ve ever had. Ever.” If Elmore could foul off pitches, work the count, give Eaton a better chance to steal, bunt, get on base, and steal a base himself, that would represent a significant asset to the offense.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 08:18 AM) I was thinking the same thing, didn't wanna post it though because I wanna believe Eaton is a .300+/.350+ guy. I guess the only difference is Elmore never made a top prospect list. Here are the stats for the PCL's 2012 season: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/l...cgi?id=0dccdf2c Here are the same stats for the International League's 2012 season: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/l...cgi?id=8300bf39 The walks per 9 innings were identical for the League, at 3.4, so that doesn't suggest that their high OBP's were a function of "wild pitching" opponents. If these numbers suggest that Eaton and Elmore were just exploiting terrible pitching, and bad control, then you'll have to find the evidence, and draw your own conclusions.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 11, 2013 -> 08:05 AM) The author called Elmore a "dirtbag". Hahn called Eatona "dirtbag". Coincidence ? I think not. Very grindy stuff. You're right, and the use of that term by both Hahn and the author of the article was one of the things that made me think there might be a bigger master plan here. Wouldn't Eaton and Elmore be a refreshing change for our miserable OBP top of the order hitters?

Perhaps Hahn has bigger plans for Jake Elmore than most fans think: http://www.foxsportsarizona.com/06/20/12/R...?blockID=749442 Eaton and Elmore were team mates at Reno, and were on base "machines" at the top of the order: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/t...cgi?id=1c0d7c8a Hahn may be thinking that Elmore could play third, and bat second in the order. There just may be "a method to Hahn's madness".

I assume that the front office had the following set of priorities, among perhaps others, going into the off season: Fix the middle of the order, which was a disaster last season Find a high OBP lead off hitter Improve the defense, especially the outfield Add a potent LH middle of the order bat Find a catcher who can handle the staff and hit respectably Add a LH bullpen arm Abreu was a big step toward addressing the first priority Eaton is their attempt to satisfy the second item on that list Two down, and four to go, on my list.

My remarks were based upon the following scouting report: http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/08/...-adam-eaton-of/ Does anyone disagree with this assessment, and why? I like the kid, but was hoping for more.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Dec 10, 2013 -> 02:15 PM) Kid looks to have a gun....(another thing Lillian seems to be wrong about in the other thread) This scouting report, plus the injury to his throwing arm, last season seemed to indicate that his arm was not good enough to profile in RF: http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/08/...-adam-eaton-of/ It should be fine in CF.

The scouting report on Eaton suggests that his best skill is getting on base. However, he has yet to prove that at the MLB level. If is not successful at that, he is nothing more than a fourth outfielder. He lacks the speed and skill to stick in CF. He lacks the power to be a corner outfielder, and he also does not have the arm for RF. Even if he can get on base, he is not a real threat to steal, to make him an ideal lead off hitter. With his skill set, if he were a proven player in the big leagues, he might be worth Santiago. But, he is still only a prospect. Please don't tell me that he is all the Sox are going to get for Santiago, plus a prospect!!! The fact that he bats left handed is not significant, in that our need is for a LH hitting, middle of the order guy.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Dec 9, 2013 -> 03:05 PM) Kolek is a high school kid so anytime soon is probably out of the question. Hoffman? Ehh who knows. From what I've seen he would probably have to improve his change up a lot, or just add a new 3rd pitch all together. His fastball and command seem to be there and his curve ball seems legit, but he doesn't use much else at this point. Rondon is the guy you want if you're looking for immediate big impact. Unfortunately he's more than likely not falling to 3rd. I can't believe Rondon would still be there, when the Sox pick. I would want that middle of the order, left handed bat, who was "can't miss", to be included in any trade for Sale.

Does Hoffman, Kolek, or anyone else the Sox might have the chance to pick in the Draft, have "Ace" potential, anytime soon? I'd be OK with dealing Sale for the right package, if the Sox could get Tanaka, and that potential stud, with the #3 pick. However, everything about that scenario is a real long shot.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 8, 2013 -> 09:41 AM) One day Lillian will realize that the dream is over "It ain't over, til it's over"

A few things to remember about Choo: He is terrible vs. left handed pitching. He was hit by pitches a league leading 26 times last year, and that's not a good way to generate a high OBP. One of those pitches is likely to land him on the DL. He is not a good defensive outfielder, especially in CF. And of course, he will cost way too much money, and want too long of a contract. I'd still like to see a one year deal, at a reasonable price, for a certain other former Indian, left handed, center fielder. Dare I mention his name? With these crazy contracts, that gamble is looking better every day. He's the same age as Choo, and is a better outfielder, even after the knee surgery. He's also better suited to bat in the middle of the order, if he's really healthy, of course. He will probably be much more interested in guaranteed playing time, than a long term deal, as he will want to prove he is healthy, in order to re-establish his value. The Sox are in a position to take that gamble, as he would not be blocking anyone, and would not cost a draft pick, as I mentioned one of the several times that I brought it up. I know some will attack me for belaboring the point, but these ridiculous contracts provide a new perspective on the idea. What would the Sox have to lose?

Although I am one of the strongest advocates of a left handed hitting addition to the lineup, I don't see the need for a left handed hitting catcher. Any solid defensive back stop, who can get on base at a respectable rate would be fine. It's in the middle of the order that this team needs that left handed presence

QUOTE (beck72 @ Nov 3, 2013 -> 07:13 AM) LF-De Aza SS- Alexei RF-Avisail Garcia DH-Dunn 1b-Jose Abreu 3b-Gillaspie/ Keppinger [trade for Garin Cecchini with Boston, for Hector Santiago: will start in AAA, should be ready by end of year to take over at 3b] 2b-Semien [beckham traded] C-Bryan Pena/ Phegley CF-Adam Eaton [trade with Dbacks, Dayan Vicideo part of the deal, as the Dbacks need more power, have AJ Pollock in CF] Eaton would be a nice piece to add, with his ability to get on base. However, it appears that he is not a solution for CF: http://baseballprospectnation.com/2012/08/...-adam-eaton-of/

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Oct 31, 2013 -> 08:12 PM) Did Lillian hack your account? All kidding aside, I totally agree. Reading this thread put a big smile on my face. Thanks Jake. It's nice to hear someone else make the argument. I'd wager that the next big acquisition will be that middle of the order left handed bat, not Khris Davis. Hahn seems to know what he's doing and has a good plan.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Oct 28, 2013 -> 07:01 AM) I suspect that yes Hahn is looking for a LHH but you don't limit yourself to that. I like how you mention Granderson as a potent left handed bat but yet you apparently don't think Adam Dunn is that guy. They are virtually the same hitter. Like it or not Adam Dunn is a middle of the lineup bat, he still makes managers "burn through their bullpen". By "potent" I meant that he is a power hitter. However, as I said, he isn't all that great. I don't like either Granderson or Dunn in the middle of the order. Unfortunately, that might be the best that we'll be able to come up with.

Several of you make good points regarding the need for good hitters, regardless of from which side of the plate they bat. And it is true that there are some rare right handed hitters who actually hit righties better than lefties. Moreover, the whole issue is less important at the top and bottom of the order. However, when focusing upon the middle of the order, it is just not nearly as advantageous to have all right handed hitters. We have discussed that in previous threads. Pitchers can much more easily get into a groove, when facing a lineup consisting of so many guys hitting from the same side of the box. Managers do not have to burn through the bullpen by trying to match relievers to hitters, late in the game. And then, as one of you reiterated one of my previous points, there just aren't that many tough lefties in the American League, especially in our division. Yes, the Sox won it all in '05, with only A. J. and Everett in the middle of the order, and neither of them were that good vs. RHP. However, that team did not win because of its offense. Can any of you honestly argue that it is not important to find at least one potent left handed hitter for the middle of the line up? I suspect that Hahn agrees with my thinking, and that rumors of acquisitions such as Granderson or McCann are precisely based upon the obvious need for a good left handed, middle of the order hitter. Unfortunately, I don't think that either of those guys would be worth the money, or be all that great. Now, if you're talking about giving up your #2 starter, who is cost controlled for a few years, I don't think you do it unless you can get that potent left handed bat.

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Oct 27, 2013 -> 08:49 PM) I'm sorry "Jordan", I just can't help myself. Apparently, a good left handed hitter seems to be the most rare and elusive commodity around here. Everyone on this board just keeps clamoring for this guy, or that guy, and they are almost always right handed. Geez!!! It's just frustrating. Garcia, Abreu, Viciedo, Thompson, Hawkins, and they'll probably draft Gatewood (I hope so) If they trade Quintana, it better be for a good left handed bat. Ok. Now I'll "stop already".

QUOTE (Joshua Strong @ Oct 26, 2013 -> 05:23 PM) If you could have one of them, who would it be. I am torn between Bryant and Almora. Bryant can be that monster in the middle of the order, who can play 3B for the White Sox and be that middle of the order bat for the next 10+ years. And Almora could be the White Sox version of Derek Jeter, and a dynamic and versatile #2 hitter. Once again, I wish we could come up with a middle of the order left handed bat. Bryant is another right handed hitter. What a strange circumstance, in which the Sox find themselves; too many lefties in the starting rotation, and no left handed hitters in sight. The only potential impact, left handed bat appears to be Barnum, if he flops, where will they find one?

While I generally agree that it makes sense to pick the best player, how can management justify picking short stops with their number one picks, in two consecutive drafts? What would picking Turner, with the #3 pick, say about their choice of T. Anderson, in last year's draft? After all, they both appear to have pretty much the same skill sets. Anderson is currently ranked as their #3 prospect. The other issue is how much of an asset a good fielding, speedster at short is, compared to a middle of the order hitter like Gatewood or Jackson could be. I'll take the middle of the order hitter. They are the ones who cost the most in trades and free agency. My pick is Gatewood. He has the most upside, and just happens to be a perfect candidate to fill the organization's long term need for a third baseman.