Friend of Nordhagen

QUOTE(Wanne @ Jun 12, 2007 -> 01:05 AM) Agree with the develop some players...but starts with DRAFT some players. BTW..."stop b****ing about the world---just deal with it?!? Didn't you just have about 5 post b****ing about Vazquez? Let's start with this: earlier in this thread, I defended Williams for not trading Crede. And no one could have assumed how bad MacDougal would be. I thought that guy was a really good addition. So I'll always give Williams credit where it's due. BUT -- In my mind, you don't deal with the inflated market for mid-level pitchers by signing one of those guys. You deal with the market by accepting that's the cost for crappy pitchers, that it will drive up the cost for pitchers who've actually proven their worth -- and then, particularly, when you have 2 of those guys already on your team who won ALCS games and pitched in the World Series for you -- you pony up and sign THEM. You don't try to trade one of them to the Astros and let the other one twist in his contract year. And, yeah, I'm putting that on Williams, not Buehrle. Lock up the guys who are young and your core. All that time Williams b****es and moans about how hard it was to trade Rowand -- and how much he'd love to have him back -- and he's got another "grinder" guy like that in Buehrle -- then sign the man. Don't put your money into the guy with the lifetime record under .500, all the while complaining about this gosh darn crazy pitching market and then letting go a left-handed starter who won 100 games about 40 games earlier than Mr. Nibbles.

QUOTE(daa84 @ Jun 11, 2007 -> 10:10 PM) vazquez hasnt given up 6 runs all year and has only given up 6 once in the second half of last year and through the first two and a half months this year....thats almost a full year of pitching....no, vazquez isnt roy halladay and won't have a 2.9 ERA, but he has kept us in ballgames for a year now with an ERA in the low 4s, and for a guy who pitches 200 innings in doing so is actually pretty valuable to a team....ask the As seriously...put the blame where its due...javy had a QS tonight Look, it's not his fault about tonight. That said, I don't really think that 6 runs should be the litmus test for starters. I mean, our bullpen, yeah, but our starters? Anyway, he's prone to good months and bad months. I'm fairly confident that he'll put up some truly lousy ones before the year's over because, well, he's done that for about 6 years now. But, in any event, I'm pretty sure he could HIT better than most of our guys. That seems true. Alright, I'm done with him for tonight.

QUOTE(Flash Tizzle @ Jun 11, 2007 -> 10:09 PM) Just to remind everyone of our position in the standings, we're currently 9 games out of the division lead and 8 out of the wild card lead with eight teams to jump. I like our chances. Especially when we get Aardsma back up here.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 11, 2007 -> 10:04 PM) Well done!! *applauds* Thank you, sir. Can you tell that I'm angry? Yeah. Kinda.

QUOTE(witesoxfan @ Jun 11, 2007 -> 09:57 PM) I really can't believe anyone would rip Vazquez tonight. If the guy throws a shutout, the Sox are still tied. This is all on the offense. If anyone even cares anymore, that is. That's me. I'm ripping him. I'm not blaming him for tonight. But I am ripping him. Because 3 times a game, he leaves it up, and he gets rocked. If no one's on base, it's 3 runs. If Mr. Nibbles happens to put a couple of guys on beforehand, it's 5 or 6 runs. I'm tired of it. That guy symbolizes every mistake Kenny Williams has made -- his total fixation on guys, regardless of their abilities and track record; his belief that he's smarter than everyone else about "the market;" and his conviction that the organization he built can "fix" guys. Jesus, man, how about this: develop some players, reward the guys who have done something for the team (not those you think MIGHT), and stop b****ing about the world as it is -- just deal with it.

QUOTE(whitesoxfan101 @ Jun 11, 2007 -> 09:25 PM) There is no comparison between the 2. Buehrle was a good pitcher coming off a career bad year, Crede is a bad hitter coming off a career good year, with back problems, and our top prospect behind him, plus a crazy agent. Maybe. But until Josh Fields can hit a fastball, I'm not sure he's much of a prospect.

QUOTE(Wanne @ Jun 11, 2007 -> 09:20 PM) Puhlease...blame Vazquez!....brilliant. Vazquez is FAR from the problem with this team. Kenny should be officially on notice. How he's handled everything from the minor league system, the outfield, Crede...he's actually making Jerry Krause look not too shabby. Good job reading the first line of my post. I didn't blame the game on Javier Floyd Bannister Vazquez. But by the way, if you're questioning moves by Kenny Williams, I think that trading your best outfield prospect for a mediocrity, then being at least 2 outfielders short the VERY NEXT year, is a problem. Then Williams pays the guy $11 million -- all the while complaining that he can't afford another outfielder, or bullpen help, or Mark Buehrle, and then tries to trade Jon Garland -- all because life is getting too expensive! Really? Then don't pay Javy 11 million dollars! Maybe you're right. It's not Javy's fault that he's mediocre. It's Kenny's fault that Javy's mediocre -- and here.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jun 11, 2007 -> 09:10 PM) Another mistake by KW last offseason. Once he declined the surgery, he should have been traded. KW had to know he'd never sign him to a big deal with his lingering back issue. Here's a rarity for me lately: I'm going to defend Kenny Williams. I have no idea what, if anything, he was offered for Crede. But, as a general idea, I was in favor of holding onto Joe. He's one of those core guys -- gritty, very good defender, outstanding in the clutch, and seemingly key to the makeup of this team when it's been at its best. Just a hunch, but I think that he was worth more to us than what we could've gotten in trade, especially because his back condition -- not the extent of it but certainly the possibility of how bad it could be -- was pretty well known. I feel the same way about Buehrle, by the way. He's a White Sox.

QUOTE(S(Pride)X @ Jun 11, 2007 -> 09:07 PM) He said that if he leans to the left he pitches to the first base side and if he stands straight it goes to the 3rd base side. Not going to lay this anywhere but the offense, BUT -- When I turned on the game in the 6th, it was 2-0 and the Phils were up. There was one out. I flipped over to the Sopranos, confident that Vazquez would give up another run in THAT INNING. Because he's about a 4.5 ERA guy, with no brains, and no heart. (And $11 million per year.) He can't possibly pitch 6 innings and not give up 3 runs. Can't do it. Sure enough, after watching Paulie Walnuts get promoted to head of the Cifaretto crew, I turned back to see that Javier had given up his magical 3rd run in 6 innings or less. Like death and taxes and, oh, mediocrity: ladies and gentlemen, our pal, Javier Vazquez!

QUOTE(Friend of Nordhagen @ Jun 8, 2007 -> 01:21 PM) My question on Fields is the same one I had last year: can he hit a major-league fastball? He seems to have trouble with good velocity. That's a little strange for a top-level prospect. It's usually dealing with the off-speed stuff that you wonder about. Bump. He struck out 3 times today. One was on an 89 MPH fastball from Wandy Rodriguez. Did anyone see the others?

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 6, 2007 -> 11:23 PM) Well, the GM said Fields would have an immediate impact and will be an all-star someday. Which grossly overrates a prospect who strikes out more than Brian Anderson and will be lucky to hit .200 against major league pitching. The criticism should really be directed at KW who is responsible for a junkyard minor league system devoid of a single real positional prospect. My question on Fields is the same one I had last year: can he hit a major-league fastball? He seems to have trouble with good velocity. That's a little strange for a top-level prospect. It's usually dealing with the off-speed stuff that you wonder about.

QUOTE(hitlesswonder @ Jun 4, 2007 -> 10:12 AM) I'll agree to the extent that Crede looks like he'll end up as a sub-.200 hitter pretty soon. But Fields posting a decent OBP in Charlotte is way different than doing it against major league pitching. He's striking out at 30% rate against minor league pitchers. That rate will go up in the bigs, and he'd have to post an incredible BABIP to make up for it. If he keeps walking that will obviously help, but who knows if he can sustain that walk rate in the bigs. It's not like he has a long history as a high-OBP player.In any case, I agree the Sox should call him up and see what he can do. I'm just saying no one should expect success. From watching him last September and in spring training this year, Fields has a problem with good fastballs. That's a little disturbing; the usual problem with young hitters is the off-speed stuff. Can he get "quicker" with his swing?

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ Jun 3, 2007 -> 10:56 PM) Do a search and see if you can find me praising Shapiro about his bullpen. He doesn't have $100 million to spend on the roster though. The funny thing is the board was laughing about the Indians bullpen while posting how dominant the White Sox is, what are their stats? It appears you are one of those guys who thinks KW can do no wrong. That's fine. I disagree with you, and think winning the title has gone to his head. I'm not sure if it went to his head, but Williams has always had a little case of the "I'm smarters" -- I suppose you need some of that as a GM, but it overtook him this offseason. His strong, and publicly expressed, contempt for the price of pitching -- particularly starting pitching -- made him do something with very bad consequences: he ditched experienced starters for minor league starters, as opposed to for position players or bullpen help. THAT was the aspect of sacrificing this year for future years that seemed pretty obvious at the time. If you're going to jettison Garcia and McCarthy, but not use those guys to bring back an outfielder to replace Podsednik or Anderson, or a veteral bullpen guy -- then you're putting your chips on projects like Sisco, Aardsma and Erstad. True enough he got Danks, but he did that for years 2008 through 2012, not 2007. And now those decisions are coming home to roost.

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QUOTE(fathom @ May 30, 2007 -> 07:42 PM) Should have traded Haeger during the offseason, as teams were actually interested in him. Nah, my money's on Haeger getting back on track. Knuckleballers can go through some awful stretches. Wakefield has had some brutal years, but he's a valuable guy.

QUOTE(Greg The Bull Luzinski @ May 30, 2007 -> 04:47 PM) For the record, this thread has one of the best titles I have ever seen. Thanks. Looks like I really started something here.

QUOTE(29thandPoplar @ May 30, 2007 -> 03:40 PM) How about that rolling breaking ball he hit off of Garland? That wasn't a fastball. Bill Melton was on the postgame and he said it ticks him off because other teams know how to get hunter out. Basically you pitch him in on his hands and then he will chase offspeed stuff down and away. Let's face it this was a total team loss. Good point by Melton. I can't remember the last time that we pitched Hunter inside.

We have a bullpen of hard throwers, not pitchers. These so-called "power arms" would be, most importantly, locked up for years on first contracts. But many, many people on this site noted that several of these guys had problems getting the ball over the plate. And guess what? They can't. But they are locked up for years at reasonable rates. We have a roster -- and minor league system, apparently -- that rewards guys who swing hard, strike out a lot, and look great in a uniform. But they don't seem to play the game with intelligence or heart. We have little to no offense from LF and SS this year. Last year, we had little to no offense from LF and SS. No improvements were made, other than a heavy investment in wishful thinking about guys turning it around. This one's on the general manager, for hedging this season -- and sacrificing mightily -- for the promise of payroll predictability and undefined, uncertain and unlikely tomorrows. The next time he wants to go on a rant about wanting to see better performance, he should start with himself.

QUOTE(Stan Bahnsen @ May 30, 2007 -> 12:14 PM) Hi folks, new to the board. You nailed it on Vazquez, Nordy! The guy just doesn't know how to win consistently, and his hanging offspeed pitches and wheelhouse fastballs are thrown in the worst situations. A Sox team that won 90 games last year went 13-18 in games Javy started. The year before, he posted a losing record, 11-14 and 4.42 ERA in one of the worst and lightest hitting divisions in recent memory, the 2005 NL West. This guy has been living off his reputation as much as any pitcher in baseball. His ability to hold a one or two run lead in the middle to late innings is virtually noinexistent. He pitches well when given a huge lead, but who doesn't. He seldom closes the door after being given a lead. There's a reason he's 102-108. The best thing about the guy is his durability. I could go on and on, but I'll just get angrier about the trade. CYoung is just the type of dynamic multi-tool right-handed young outfielder the Sox need now and going forward. I also dreaded this trade the day it happened. It's the only one I've REALLY hated in the later KW era. After he took off the training wheels, I've been a big fan of KW generally. The trades where all players turned out to be crap really don't matter. Now, Nordy, I'm also worried that Javy's re-signing will lead to the deparature of Buehrle and/or Garland as the dominoes fall. We'll see how the season turn out, but instead of riding the Javy express to a 3rd straight disappointment in '08, KW needs to trade his ass this offseason, and re-sign Mark and Jon (Vazquez can't be traded until the offseason according to his contract, I believe). Will KW let his ego get in the way of common sense and keep our wagon hitched to this loser for the rest of his contract? Stan Bahnsen, huh? That's some old-school, red-pinstripe, Wilbur Wood-Jim Kaat-Claude Osteen stuff there. Welcome to the board -- and welcome to agreeing with me! You mention durability with Vazquez. For Williams, I think that was the key to re-signing him. He makes his starts. But so did Jaime Navarro. He made a lot of starts. (Not too many finishes, though.) That was just a senseless trade -- made with the intention of protecting our starters, who had been extended in 2005. THAT part made sense. But they had McCarthy to take the 5th spot -- and still would've had El Duque as a swing guy, pitching lighter innings, during the year. Even then, it still might've been a good move, if it weren't Young involved (one of our few minor leaguers who seemed to have plate discipline, not to mention speed) or Vazquez coming back. The man's track record screamed: "Hello, I'm Javy. I'm mediocre. And I'm paid nearly $10 million a year." Pretty ill-advised all the way around. My guess is that, if an opportunity were to come along, Williams would move him. But given what he received for Garcia, I'm not holding my breath for a big return.

QUOTE(CWSGuy406 @ May 29, 2007 -> 06:36 PM) Young has been fantastic this year -- a .278/.317/.470 line in about 150 at-bats including 17 extra basehits already, that would rank second on the Sox -- and figures to only get better. Six years of, at worst, a Mike Cameron type player or four years of a league average pitcher making $10 million annually? I'll take the former. It'll never be a terrible trade because Vazquez as a league average innings eater holds value, but man, this organization will -- actually, already is -- regret(ing) the day it traded Chris Young. Couldn't agree more. Our outfield -- RIGHT NOW -- needs a young player who can hit, run and field. THAT player is in Arizona, and he's named Chris Young. He'll get better, too. In his place is the guy who has been rewarded for mediocrity. IF -- and it's a big IF -- the signing of that turd to an $11 million deal prevents us from signing guys who actually have ACHIEVED things for this team -- and are critical to its makeup (Buehrle, Garland) -- the trade becomes even worse. And just so I'm totally clear about my position: I don't think Vazquez has underachieved. I think this is who he is, and has been, for about 6 years now. His stuff isn't excellent. The view to the contrary is a myth. Here's why: if you continue to hang off-speed pitches -- that is, throw curveballs that don't curve and sliders that don't slide -- you're not underachieving. Your stuff just isn't that consistently good. That's the guy I see. I get angry just thinking about that trade. I did the day it happened. And I do right now.

The next time Kenny Williams starts blasting his team in the media, maybe he should start with himself. To say that he fell down on the job . . . oh, my.

QUOTE(Dick Allen @ May 28, 2007 -> 03:27 PM) The bullpen combined makes less than 1/3 of what Vazquez gets. Going cheap on the bullpen is stupid. Justin Speier would have been a far more valuable player for the White Sox than Pods. I hate Javier Vazquez. I just think it's important to point that out.

QUOTE(Brian @ May 28, 2007 -> 03:20 PM) Wait til the Twins get a real ball park. I never enjoy something quite as much as when the Twins blow up in the playoffs. The reason is simple: a team that doesn't play in a baseball stadium doesn't deserve to win the most important games in baseball. Whatever that piece of garbage is, it ain't that. It serves their organization, fan base, and Punto/Tyner slap-down-at-the-ball-3rd-graders right. They deserve to win nothing. I'm glad they've won NOTHING in the playoffs in 15 years. I wish it were longer. I wish they hadn't beaten the Cardinals in '87 and the Braves in '91. I wish that Harmon Killebrew would have to play centerfield for them -- today. There. I feel much better. Of course, if they want to give us Santana, Morneau, Mauer, Hunter, Cuddyer, Punto, Castillo and Nathan -- well, I'd be alright with that, too.

QUOTE(GoSox05 @ May 18, 2007 -> 04:01 PM) making Demster look like Rivera You mean FunnyMan Ryan Dempster, right? Cuz that's what our lovely Chicago media would have you believe. Dude's like the John Salley of baseball -- not really funny, but he's an athlete and he makes lousy jokes, so he's HILARIOUS.

QUOTE(Brian @ May 18, 2007 -> 03:52 PM) Ask Cub fans about yesterday. Happy that we can get them back on the right track.