Dick Allen

QUOTE (knightni @ May 5, 2012 -> 03:31 PM) Yeah, but he was traded while injured. If he was healthy at the time, he would have costed much more than he did. Not really. The Sox traded for him when he was healthy using the same players as bait. That's when he said no.

QUOTE (knightni @ May 5, 2012 -> 03:14 PM) Richard - up until this season - has had better results than Peavy at a fraction of the cost. Can't fault that trade though. If Peavy is healthy he's the best player in the trade by a wide margin.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 10:52 AM) And how does putting up good numbers every year from June on help the White Sox when they're already buried 10-15 GB in the standings? Wouldn't you agree that the season was lost last year already at the point when we were 11-22? So the season is lost now? Last I checked they aren't 10 GB. Apparently you are in the mode of trading everyone when their value is "peak". That's a nice way to build a team that will never win because your organization will be full of guys who aren't playing as well as they should because you would have rid yourself of all the "peak performers". To expect this roster to win is silly. Stranger things have happened and they still have a shot, but expecting it is just someone trying to be pissed off.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 10:34 AM) Like you and your boy Walker, drinking that good 'ol Georgia moonshine with Boss Hogg and Sheriff Roscoe P. Coultrane. Ramirez has been declining every season offensively. His OPS this season is around 500. He's gone from a franchise shortstop to one whose contract we will be lucky to move in another year or so. As good as his defense is, we can't afford to have no offense from over half our line-up when you've got starters like Axelrod, Molina, Castro and Stewart to cover for. I don't know what Walker has to do with this but if you check Ramirez's history, he's about where he usually is at through 26 games. In 2008 he didn't get his OPS to .500 until May 18th. In 2009 through 26 games his offensive numbers were identical to his numbers this year. In fact, his best "start" was last season. Through 26 games he was hitting .245. 2010 he basically had the same numbers he has now with a couple singles thrown in.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:36 AM) And how many hits like that has he given up in crucial situations since he was acquired? He can't miss bats when the opposing batters are waiting on a straight fastball (ahead in the count)...he has the worst knack for attracting swinging bunts, flares, bloopers, bleeders, infield singles into holes, broken bats, Texas Leaguers, shanks, but they ALWAYS seem to happen to him in critical situations!!! It's a mathematical certainty with Thornton because of his arsenal, which is essentially 1 pitch most of the time. I guess we'll see how valuable he really is when KW puts him on the open market. He has zero value to this organization going forward, except for acquiring prospects and/or clearing his salary from the payroll. Matt Thornton can't miss bats? The stats prove otherwise, but you are on a roll.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 10:15 AM) You're telling me that Rick Hahn being named GM TODAY would or actually could somehow prolong the suffering? Until 2017 or 2018 instead of 2015? Give me a break. Those moves that KW made to salvage 2008 have ended up putting off the rebuild for four full years. But what's left of Quentin, Floyd, Danks and Alexei Ramirez? Floyd has decent value, but not enough to get a potential frontline starter in return. Nobody would take Danks' contract today as is (like the Rios claim). Alexei Ramirez would get claimed based mostly on his defensive abilities, but the time to trade him to get the highest possible value in return has passed. Without the good fortune of hitting the lottery simultaneously with all four of those guys, the rebuild could have started much sooner and we'd now be in a much better position instead of waiting for 2014 or 2015. Now you're crying about Ramirez? When I mentioned a couple weeks ago, I think he's a lot older than what the record shows, you gave my post crap as you assumed it was a get rid of Ramirez post. I think you must be currently under the influence.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 10:18 AM) Kind of like the slider/slurve that never developed, either for Thornton or Poreda. Yes, Dick Allen, it's possible that there are some pitchers out there who can't be "cured" completely of their issues. That's why in his prime from 2002-2004, Marte was even better than Thornton, he had two pitches. Just what I've been saying about Don Cooper all along,yet you would go on and on about him. Now Thornton's no good, no one would take Danks, Floyd would only bring back a marginal prospect... Coop was walking on water in your eyes 2 weeks ago when you gave him 100% credit for Humber's perfect game. For the record, say what you want about Matt Thornton, but he certainly was Don Cooper's #1 success story.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 08:43 AM) Ring, Poreda, Sale. See the pattern? It's pretty bad when you're defending using the 13th pick in the first round of a draft on someone (essentially) who the GM traded for Nestor Molina. How valuable is that? You mean to tell me that Chris Sale could have gotten us Molina AND Stewart because he's left-handed? Wow! Consider me impressed. And, ONCE AGAIN, who will Chris Sale and Addison Reed close or lock down games for? We're going to trade our best starter or lose him after the season (Jake Peavy), so why is the bullpen so important for a team now in full rebuilding mode? Castro, Molina. If Don Cooper can get Phil Humber to throw a perfect game, remember how much credit you gave him for that, he certainly can make Castro and Molina decent MLB starters. I posted the 1st round of Sale's draft. Who should they have selected ?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 08:31 AM) The problem is that RISK-TAKING IS NOT FOR THE FIRST ROUND. You spend overslot once you have your guaranteed guys and you roll the dice in the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th-10th on high risk/high reward guys like Trayce Thompson or Mitchell. You go out and get a Rick Porcello instead of spending that money on Manny Ramirez, Mark Teahen or Jason Frasor. Who should the Sox have taken: 2010 Major League Baseball Draft Results (First Round) 1. Washington Nationals -- Bryce Harper -- C/OF -- College of Southern Nevada 2. Pittsburgh Pirates -- Jameson Taillon -- P -- The Woodlands High School 3. Baltimore Orioles -- Manny Machado -- SS -- Brito Private High School (Miami) 4. Kansas City Royals -- Christian Colon -- SS -- Cal. State Fullerton 5. Cleveland Indians -- Drew Pomeranz -- P -- Mississippi 6. Arizona Diamondbacks -- Barret Loux -- P -- Texas A&M 7. New York Mets -- Matt Harvey -- P -- North Carolina 8. Houston Astros -- Delino DeShields Jr. -- 2B -- Woodward Academy 9. San Diego Padres -- Karsten Whitson -- P -- Chipley High School 10. Oakland Athletics -- Michael Choice -- OF -- University of Texas Arlington 11. Toronto Blue Jays -- Deck McGuire -- P -- Georgia Tech 12. Cincinnati Reds -- Yasmani Grandal -- C -- University of Miami 13. Chicago White Sox -- Chris Sale -- P -- Florida Gulf Coast University 14. Milwaukee Brewers -- Dylan Covey -- P -- Maranatha High School 15. Texas Rangers -- Jake Skole -- OF -- Georgia Tech 16. Chicago Cubs -- Hayden Simpson -- P -- Southern Arkansas 17. Tampa Bay Rays -- Josh Sale -- OF -- Bishop Blanchet High School 18. Anaheim Angels -- Kaleb Cowart -- 3B -- Cook High School of Georgia 19. Houston Astros -- Mike Foltynewicz -- P -- University of Texas 20. Boston Red Sox -- Kolbrin Vitek -- 2B -- Ball State University 21. Minnesota Twins -- Alex Wimmers -- P -- Ohio State University 22. Texas Rangers -- Kellin DeGlan -- C -- R.E. Mountain High School 23. Florida Marlins -- Christian Yelich -- OF -- Westlake High School (California) 24. San Francisco Giants -- Gary Brown -- OF -- Cal. State Fullerton 25. St. Louis Cardinals -- Zach Cox -- 3B -- University of Arkansas 26. Colorado Rockies -- Kyle Parker -- OF -- Clemson University 27. Philadelphia Phillies -- Jesse Biddle -- P -- Germantown Friendship High School (Pennsylvania) 28. Los Angeles Dodgers -- Zach Lee -- P -- McKinney High School 29. Anaheim Angels -- Cam Bedrosian -- P -- East Coweta High School (Georgia) 30. Anaheim Angels -- Chevy Clarke -- OF -- Marietta High School (Georgia) 31. Tampa Bay Rays -- Justin O'Conner -- C-- Cowan High School (Indiana) 32. New York Yankees -- Cito Culver -- SS -- Irondequoit High School (New York)

Not exactly the Baseball Bible but here is Bleacher Reports take on the Sox selection of Sale the day he was chosen: 13. Chicago White Sox-Chris Sale, LHP There are a lot of durability concerns about Sale. This 6′6″ lefty projects to be a relief pitcher. The fact of the matter is if Sale projected to physically being able to give you anywhere close to 200 innings a year, the Sox would never had a chance at drafting him. I guess when news like Sale is going to be a releiver comes out people want to go back to the "safe" draft pick and get guys like Lance Broadway.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 08:31 AM) The problem is that RISK-TAKING IS NOT FOR THE FIRST ROUND. You spend overslot once you have your guaranteed guys and you roll the dice in the 2nd/3rd/4th/5th-10th on high risk/high reward guys like Trayce Thompson or Mitchell. You go out and get a Rick Porcello instead of spending that money on Manny Ramirez, Mark Teahen or Jason Frasor. Go back to that draft on google, and tell me who they should have selected instead of Sale. You will have a definite advantage as you can select ANY player from the 2010 draft picked after the "wasted selection of Sale". Give me that name, you will have the advantage of being able to determine 2 years worth of development, I will take Sale the releiver, you can have your selection and I will bet you whatever you would like to bet that 5 years from now, Sale was the better pick.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 08:09 AM) What starters will they be closing out any wins for this season besides Jake Peavy (and after he's traded to save cash, who then)? Starters are 5-10X more important than relievers on rebuilding teams. And taking Sale out of the starting rotation means we're 100% in full rebuild now. No going back. Santos was the first move, albeit idiotic. Signing Danks long-term makes even LESS sense now than it did when Sale was going to be a fixture in the rotation for years to come. And Ventura doesn't even trust Reed, FWIW. If Don Copper is the miracle worker you continously claim he is, finding a starter to take Sale's innings should be pretty easy. The fact is, Sale was going to be removed from the rotation in July or August even in the best cast scenerio.What has Don Cooper done with John Danks? Sale, even if he's going to be used in the bullpen his entire career, was the best player on the board when the Sox drafted him. Look at the guys picked after him and tell me who is a better fit? The Cubs picked a college starter 3 picks later who has a 6.00 ERA for his career and he isn't out of A ball yet.

QUOTE (Reddy @ May 5, 2012 -> 08:03 AM) hahahaha this MAKES HIM A WASTED DRAFT PICK! you don't draft closers in the first damn round and rush them to the major leagues. you just don't. and if all those other teams saw it and Kenny Williams DIDN'T, well then he deserves to be gone. Last straw, camels back, all that. and you know what? TJ surgery wouldn't ruin his career. go take a look at mr. Strasburg's stats and get back to me. First off, how do you know he was headed to Tommy John surgery? We don't even know what's wrong with him exactly. If Sale spends his career closing and does well, you may call him a wasted pick, and you may say you don't draft closers in the first round, but you will also see the vast majority of teams, some who passed on Sale and some who picked in the first round after he was off the board, would have been far better off if Chris Sale, closer, was their draft choice. Even if he need the TJ surgery and missed a year or so, why would that be the end of it? Do you see his motion? He was a top 3 pick that draft except for the injury concern. Here are the White Sox first round picks since Larry Himes stopped drafting stars. You will see some wasted draft picks. He's already been more productive than 90% and his career has just begun. 2010 Chris Sale LHP Florida Gulf Coast University 13 2009 Jared Mitchell OF LSU 23 2008 Gordon Beckham SS Univ. of Georgia 8 2007 Aaron Poreda LHP San Francisco 25 2006 Kyle McCulloch RHP Texas 29 2005 Lance Broadway RHP TCU 15 2004 Josh Fields 3B Oklahoma State 18 2003 Brian Anderson OF U. of Arizona 15 2002 Roger Ring LHP San Diego State 18 2001 Kris Honel RHP Providence HS, New Lenox, 16 2000 Joe Borchard OF Camarillo, CA 12 1999 Jason Stumm RHP Centralia, WA 15 1999 Matt Ginter RHP Mississippi State U. 22 1998 Robert Wells RHP Baylor U. 16 1997 Jason Dellaero SS U of South Florida 15 1996 Bobby Seay LHP Sarasota, FL 12 1995 Jeff Liefer 3B Long Beach State U 25 1994 Mark Johnson C Warner Robbins, GA 26 1993 Scott Christman LHP Oregon State U 17 1992 Eddie Pearson 3B Bishop St JC 24 1991 Scott Ruffcorn RHP Baylor U 25

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ May 5, 2012 -> 07:59 AM) Because our two best young pitchers (Reed and Sale) are more or less worth (at least to our genius GM) one Nestor Molina. Maybe not even Molina, because we just raised a giant RED (not white this time) FLAG for all to see for any team who was potentially intrigued by acquiring him for something decent. And, because we have no hope of contending with our rotation from here on out this season. Other than that, everthing's great. The Sox can have Sale close and Reed work in the 7th and 8th innings. You're making no sense BTW. You claim the Sox need Sale in the rotation to be any good, yet you seem more concerned with what other teams would be interested in giving up to acquire him. Who cares what other teams value him at? Closers are extremely valuable. The giant RED FLAG would have been Chris Sale undergoing surgery.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 4, 2012 -> 11:25 PM) If he has a bad arm, he has a bad arm. Shut him down and keep him at starter. How the hell will all the work a closer does help his arm?? Stone went over this last night. As a starter he throws 4 or 5 different pitches. He really only needs to throw 2 as a closer. Its hard to understand how people can be up in arms the White Sox have decided to protect one of their players. Doesn't everyone realize the White Sox would rather keep him in the rotation and have him throw 200 innings every year? The bottom line is they don't think, like many other teams thought, he'll be able to hold up, and pushing it to find out for sure could ruin the kid's career. Let him be a great closer. Its not a wasted draft pick.

QUOTE (knightni @ May 5, 2012 -> 04:09 AM) Javy Vazquez cost Chris Young. No Chris Young, they were forced to struggle with Anderson in CF, then trade away Gio Gonzalez for Swisher because he sucked as a CF and in the clubhouse. Then they gave away Swisher for scraps. Following, they needed a CF still, so they wasted a bunch of money acquiring Rios' contract. They traded Richard to SD to get a big salary SP Peavy who ended up being hurt for 2.5 seasons. They wanted Adam Dunn because Rios wasn't a good enough hitter, they dealt Dan Hudson and David Holmberg to Arizona for Edwin Jackson because Rizzo wanted a vet SP instead of a rookie. Then, Rizzo backed out of the trade and the White Sox ended up giving him a 1st round pick free next year and signed Dunn to a deal. Rios, Peavy, and Dunn were so expensive that they couldn't re-sign their biggest fan draw - Mark Buehrle - and their attendance has plummeted. So, they lost Young, Gonzalez, Richard, Hudson, Holmberg, a #1 and Buehrle. They got Zach Stewart, Tyler Flowers, Brent Lillibridge, and three albatross contracts. This is pretty good, and most likely at least 80% true. I blame the entire Dunn contract on listening to Ozzie concerning the DH position and not signing Thome to a $1 million contract in 2010. Not only did it lead to overpaying for Dunn, it also led to paying Manny Ramirez 4 times what it would have taken to sign Thome for one month and 2 RBI . KW has made some really bad decisions the past few seasons. He does need to go but he's not the reason the Sox lost last night. Letting Peavy face Cabrera wasn't wise. That cost a run. Thornton gave up a broken bat hit, and then a bad mistake on 0-2 where Peralta lit a line drive out of one of the few areas you can hit a line drive out of Comerica Park.

QUOTE (winninguglyin83 @ May 4, 2012 -> 08:36 PM) Sale closing? Kidding. Let Thornton finish. Santiago has seen his last ninth inning for awhile. He'll pitch the ninth at home with the game out of hand either way.

QUOTE (fathom @ May 4, 2012 -> 08:33 PM) I've always hated when a manager asks his pitcher if he wants to stay in or come out. Yes. If you have to ask, the question has already been answered.

QUOTE (greg775 @ May 4, 2012 -> 08:34 PM) I can't believe you guys preferred a reliever to Peavy there. He was out of gas facing one of the best hitters of the past 20 years who has seen his pitches 3 times previously tonight.

QUOTE (JoshPR @ May 4, 2012 -> 08:31 PM) Nice game Jake, time to shower It was time to shower several minutes earlier. Hopefully it won't coast the Sox a win and hopefully Robin learned something there.

I don't agree with this.

QUOTE (K-Rock @ May 4, 2012 -> 08:24 PM) De Aza doesn't look real comfortable in CF. Is this really better than him in right and Rios in center? Yes.

QUOTE (justBLAZE @ May 4, 2012 -> 08:05 PM) This is a completely different team on the road. Why is that? I think its sample size.

Nice DP turn. If I was the manager JFP would be done for the night.

QUOTE (JoeCoolMan24 @ May 4, 2012 -> 08:02 PM) And THAT is why Morel is on this team! It is why he's on the team. If he was average defensively, he'd be somewhere else, probably with a lot smaller paycheck.