Dick Allen

I understand the White Sox aren't going to come out and say, we run a business and want to make some money. That wouldn't go over very well. What does work is the break even line they use. The reality is that while JR might not mind if they didn't turn a huge profit, he would be livid if they lose money. According to Forbes, they seem to make between $10 million and $20 million just about every year.

QUOTE (WCSox @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 08:04 PM) IIRC, Kenny said this back in May, when it was obvious that the Sox weren't going to take a massive hit in attendance. This is the best example that I can think of that NOTHING that comes out of the Sox front office can be taken at face value. Their official position is always whatever it takes to give them an advantage. There's almost no way that Kenny would've gotten salary relief for Rios after he claimed him. He would've had zero leverage at that point. Kenny would've had to have taken on a second player to get salary relief in return. That would've involved taking on another expensive contract (which would've been counter-productive) or taking a prospect in return (not a good idea for the Jays, who were clearly entering a rebuilding process). Therefore, Kenny absolutely had to know that the chances of him getting any salary relief after claiming Rios was close to nil... because everybody knew that. Not on a waiver claim, but I think he really didn't believe Toronto would let him go for nothing. It was reported he was trying to get him earlier and obviously whatever he was offering wasn't as good as just eating his contract. So either KW thought they wouldn't move him and try to work out a trade or he was trying to block him from going elsewhere. Detroit may have claimed him and waived Maggs. Considering what they would have saved with Maggs off the books, it made a little sense.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 07:34 PM) I was pretty clear on the economy reality of the situation that the Sox were preparing for. In fact, I have been borne out pretty correct in most of my predictions about how much teams that weren't as prudent would get into trouble, and you only have to look at our division to see that playing out now. The Sox were very smart and ahead of the bell-curve in being ready for the problems. So much so that they have been able to take advantage of the situation of other teams to get guys like Peavy and Rios. Also after that same argument a million times you do realize that in the world of absolutes a few different things could have happened with the Sox. The first and most obvious is that the Sox prepared for a worst case scenario that did not happen. Like always the Sox invest their extra cash back into the team. The other is that revenue ended up being higher than anticipated. Another is that at the request of Kenny Williams, Jerry went back to the board and got extra cash from the investors that hadn't been there before. Another is that they moved funds over from other areas to pay for payroll raises. None of those scenarios means the Sox were cheap, like you said a million times. They said they had no money. None. Then they said they extended themselves for Peavy which was BS because you know JR doesn't lose money. Then they claimed Rios who I still believe they really didn't want, at least without any salary relief. KW said fans came to the park. It was the $9 Buerhle tickets he referred to. It was BS. The Sox know how many tickets they have sold. They drew 400k less last year than 2007. It was the worst attendance in 5 years. They were cheap. If the money was available in June, it was available in February. They had some guys playing that had no business being in the major leagues and there were bargains last winter with one year committments. Not the crazy 5 year deal they are now stuck with a guy who scouts say packs it in. Isn't it at least possible in your mind that the Sox were sitting on money when they said they had none and spend some or all of it on Peavy and Rios? I'm a guy who had thousands invested in the team via tickets and basically because of the playoff ticket refund policy was held with thousands of others hostage laast off season. I guarantee if the Sox didn't have that money in hand, they never would have pulled the stunt they pulled. But then again the next time you disagree with any thing KW says, it will probably be the first. You probably agree with him more than any other human being. I bet you JR and Rick Hahn disagree with his moves more than you do. You used to use Forbes as a guide for White Sox payroll. What do you say about their estimated $70 million profit the past 4 seasons? As I said before, I don't have a problem with JR turning a profit, but don't say you aren't making money and moan about lack of funds when you are doing a lot better than most.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 07:21 PM) You spent pretty much at least the last year calling the Sox cheap. It has become a running joke because of how many threads you jumped into and mentioned how cheap the Sox were being. Now you are slamming the Sox for probably the biggest financial acquisitions in their history. Seems to me I am dead-on balls accurate on your moving positions. I called them cheap at the beginning of last year.You said they had no money, yet Peavy gets added and then the curious acquisition of Rios. Sounds like a team that had some money to burn to me. Of course you will never admit to that. I chided the acquisition of Rios immediately. If they have that money to spend, it could have been spent a lot more wisely. In fact, if they hadn't been so cheap the winter before, they probably wouldn't have claimed Rios, saving the team having to pay him $60 million+. Did you call out any of the other season tickeholders on this board who were dismayed at an increase in season ticket prices and a decrease in payroll?

QUOTE (Ranger @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 04:48 PM) I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but I still think the team needs another hitter. And while I like the idea of 9 guys getting just about all of the at-bats with the DH spot rotating from player to player (meaning a group of 2 or 3 players get days off from the field while remaining in the lineup...Podsednik was a HUGE fan of that idea, by the way), if they acquire a guy that is unable to play the field and only DH, that would be better than leaving the team as is. I agree. In the AL if you use a bench quality player every day which is what the Sox would be doing under the current plan, if its really a plan, as Bo Jackson would say, they would be a bat short.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 21, 2009 -> 10:15 AM) Now why is it that you love to challenge people, but it bothers you to be challenged so much? If it bothers you so much, you are probably in the wrong place. Besides, you are the one trying to slam the organization for things you criticize them for not doing at other times. You didn't challenge me. You just came up with some silly comment that didn't even portray my position accurately. Its actually a tactic I have seen you scold others for doing. If you're going to rip me, be accurate about my position.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 20, 2009 -> 09:22 PM) Duh. The tag team mods. If I bother you guys so much with logic, just ban me.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 20, 2009 -> 09:17 PM) So they are crazy if they spend, and cheap if they don't. Got it. Yeah that's exactly what I wrote. Get the chip off your shoulder man, and leave me alone. Alex Rios for 5 years is crazy especially if you cry you don't have any money. The other day I was cleaning up some things and came across a 2007 media guide. Of the 56 players the White Sox had in major league camp, 7 are still with the team. 5 years is a long time. Rios was given away. For nothing. Take him. The Sox did, so apparently they have more money than they told you they have, because don't forget, this was after they picked up Peavy. As to cheap, I have only called them cheap at the beginning of 2009. I said they were sitting on money, and all evidence points to me being correct. There is nothing to suggest Jerry Reinsdorf likes to go deep into the red for waiver claims.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Dec 20, 2009 -> 06:59 PM) I gotta say.. if this is true from Jerry, then it gives most of us Bear fans some optimism. The problem is Angelo knows once he gets rid of Lovie, he's next and with no picks in the first 2 rounds next year, the 2010 season isn't looking too promising right now. Change coaches and still suck, JA is looking for work. Keep Lovie another year, let him be the scapegoat next year, then he may have high picks and look like a genius, and get an extension.

QUOTE (Ranger @ Dec 20, 2009 -> 05:16 PM) Yeah, it says Toronto wanted to get out of the contract. It says Toronto was no longer able to afford having Wells, Rios, and Halladay's contracts at the same time. They were not in position to be able to afford it. They would've loved to ship Wells, too. Look, Rios underperformed last year and it's possible he doesn't duplicate 2006 again. But even if he doesn't, I think people are overstating how much Rios would be overpaid. Let's assume Rios has an OPS next year of .800 (not out of the question since he's been over .850 twice in the last 4 years and .798 in another of those) to go along with very good defense in CF. Meanwhile, let's say Torii Hunter has an OPS of .820 (which is also very possible as it's almost 20 points better than his career average) which, of course, goes along with very good defense in CF. Now, given the numbers in that scenario, would you say that Hunter would be worth twice as much as Rios? Would you say that Hunter's numbers would justify him being paid $18 million dollars while Rios gets just under $10? I don't think you can reasonably say that. I'm not arguing that Rios is better, because he has not been a better player than Hunter has over his career. I'm merely using Hunter as a reference point for value. What I am arguing is that if Rios performs to even something like what he's capable, he won't be all that overpaid. In fact, he may not be overpaid at all compared to what others will be getting in his position. If they just owed him the $9.7 million or whatever it is for 2010, he's worth the gamble, but considering how they seem to always be up against a wall with their budget and you really can't count on an attendance spike, especially in this economy, $5 years, $60 million is a crazy committment. He obviously has the tools to live up to the contract, and perhaps even make it look like a bargain, but he also seems to be a threat to be a poster boy for people who just deteriorate after they get the money.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 20, 2009 -> 03:04 PM) It's also possible that if this team comes out and wins the division it could beat last year's revenue numbers substantially and create some extra room. Its possible. The problem is the attendance has been on the downswing and winning while it will help, might not be the answer. The Sox drew more in 2007 than they did winning the divison in 2008 and drew even less in 2009. Of course, they drew more in 2007 than they did in 2005. Part of the problem is the Sox are going to have a lot unattractive home games. Cleveland and KC are dregs. Detroit doesn't interest many. That's 1/3 of your home schedule. The economy is still poor, but playoffs and a nice run in them could get some extra funds in the coffers, although Minnesota should be very strong. They have to beat up on Cleve, KC and Det.

QUOTE (Princess Dye @ Dec 20, 2009 -> 01:46 PM) The Rios thing screws up things for this year's free agency...but the guys we're missing out on are either old or injury plagued (Matsui/NJohnson). The Sox are still going to have money freeing up next year with which they can go in several directions. Plus of the things we're missing out on, I dont know that outfield defense was going to be helped in a different way this offseason with what was available. We needed it at two OF positions, not just one. Looking at the spreadsheet, it looks like they have about $21 less committed in 2011 vs. 2010, but Thornton has a $3 million option which unless he gets hurt is almost automatic and Quentin, Danks and Jenks still with the arb, you would figure each gets a couple million raise at the very least, so that's leaves about $12 million if payroll remained the same, and you have your entire bench to work on. It gets eat up pretty quickly. Then again, the roster will look quite different a year from now. Some of the committments will be gone and some new ones will be on the list. It would be interesting listening to KW after taking some truth serum regarding Rios. I bet you he liked him but not $60 million worth. I believe he was in talks to acquire him, but wanted Toronto to eat some of the contract.

The $82 million doesn't include Peavy. Rios is $60 million, Teahan $14 million Pierre $8 million. As for the zero prospects for Rios, doesn't that say anything? If an organizaton truly thought he is worth $12 million a year wouldn't they have given Toronto something for him?

They are changing the days off in the playoffs. The 3 man playoff rotation, unless there are rainouts or snowouts will be a thing of the past.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Dec 20, 2009 -> 08:46 AM) So... the Rangers need a right-hand power hitting 1b. They need the other team to cover salary and are willing to give up a good-hitting catcher for him. So... Konerko for Max Ramirez. Thereby, allowing us to trade Flowers... Anyone see where i'm going with this? The Rangers also have one of the top rated, and many rate it #1, farm systems in baseball. You would think if any team could get A. Gonzalez it would be them. Of course, they made the mistake of trading him to SD to begin with.

QUOTE (Ranger @ Dec 19, 2009 -> 08:47 PM) Yes, it could have...if they had more money to spend. The issue is not how they've spent, but how much they've been able to spend. The White Sox have had money to spend. Since they have acquired Peavy, they have "spent" $82 million alone on Rios, Teahan and Pierre. I think there is an issue as to how they have spent it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 19, 2009 -> 08:16 PM) 1) I love Greg Walker. 2) JR and KW, boo, boo, boo!!!! White Sox are cheap. Actually, considering many posters (including myself) have been accused of being boring/predictable, I think it's nice that there a few who are always reliable and consistent in "spinning" most White Sox news in a certain way. It gives the site some balance...it would be tremendously boring if we were in agreement or had consensus the majority of the time. Reminds me of past debates over issues like Willy Taveras, Brian Anderson or Nix/Getz...or the now steadily recurring stats/OBP versus 'scouting/eyeballs' which was first highlighted by Moneyball/The Blind Side author Michael Lewis.... Reminds me a little of the Copenhagen Summit, maddening at times, but still the "big tent" is far better than the "censorship/my way or the highway/it's our board, so shut up" approach prevalent at other Sox sites. If you're attributing the top 2 things to me, you are a little off. I never have said I love Greg Walker. I just stick up for him and know its not his fault the offense sucks when guys like Wise and Lillibridge lead off, just like nobody called for Cooper's head when MacDougal threw a few more balls back to the screen. I have also always defended JR. It wasn't that long ago many who think he now can do no wrong used to think he can do no right. As for KW, I do find him arrogant, but I also praise some of his move and find others curious. The cheap thing only was because I am a long-time season ticketholder and in 2009 they raised my invoice and lowered payroll and cried they had no money. As it turns out, I happened to be correct as they added Peavy and Rios to the mix before the season ended, although some still said I was way off, they were able to find some money someplace. Like JR forgot he stuffed $6 million above the drop ceiling in his office. If it makes me less of a fan in people's eyes because I'm not excited about Vizquel and Jones and Teahan and now Pierre (I kind of like the Putz move, but then again, I'm not penciling him in as a savior yet, as his ERA the past 2 seasons was higher than Scott Linebrink) so be it. This team was near the bottom in offense in 2009. I don't see upgrades. Pierre is probably better than Pods and I didn't want Pods back, (although if you went back, you will see I praised signing Pods earlier this year), but I don't think Pierre will match what Pods did in 2009. Thome and Dye gone is going to hurt. As bad as Dye was in the second half, he hit over .300 with big power the first half. It leads me to believe he's probably not done, but he should be a DH and he doesn't want to be a DH so he probably wouldn't do too well in that role. Thome provided power with RBI and OBP. Getz provided some speed and did some little things. His steal percentage was terrific. It seems to me the White Sox are relying on a couple of things to make up the bulk of the improvement: 1. Alex Rios. There is no doubt he is better than he played for the White Sox, but his OPS has declined 3 straight years, and a lot of scouts say he's been mailing it in. He needs to be the player Toronto thought they were getting when they gave him that contract, not the player he was when all they required was someone taking the contract off their hands to give him up. 2. The health of Carlos Quentin I know most of his injuries appear to be flukes and don't seem to be connected to each other other than his sore knee last season which didn't keep him out of the line-up. The fact is this guy has gone down at least 3 seasons in a row. Sometimes players are like this. Ken Griffey Jr.'s injuries weren't all related, yet you knew it was June when you hear he's hurt again. Mike Brown with the Bears, same thing. The one amazing thing about Quentin's injuries have been none have been because of a HBP. Considering how many times he gets hit, and his refusal to wear any armour, you have to figure that its just a matter of time. He probably would have been the MVP in 2008 if he didn't go down. He needs to return to that level. I think if he can stay healthy, its a better bet than Rios living up to his potential.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 19, 2009 -> 04:47 PM) A balanced lineup means nothing to you? The Sox have 3 lefties in their line up. I want the best offense. Why sacrifice? Do most real good right handed hitters really care if a lefty or righty is on the mound? Some probably prefer righties because they see them the most. Vlad Guerrero has a .320 lifetime average vs. RHP and .324 vs. LHP. Last year he hit .311 vs RHP. Frank Thomas killed LHP for several years, then couldn't hit lefties for a while, then started murdering them again. Just get the best hitter and things will work out a lot better. You made a good point about OBP earlier. KW said he wants the team OBP at .350. Just about everyone he's acquired this offseason reaching it in 2010 is probably against the odds. So either he thinks the guys he had will make a big jump or he's bringing in another bat.

QUOTE (Brian @ Dec 19, 2009 -> 03:56 PM) I think it is possible that by years end, Konerko could be the primary DH. Kotsay has shown he can play 1B just as well as Paulie. If Mark Kotsay is the White Sox every day firstbaseman, we better hope Bears training camp is interesting.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 19, 2009 -> 04:14 PM) 2.5-3 million seems actually a little low for Thome to me. LaRoche should still get more than that since he's actually able to play 1b. Vlad might fit at DH for us...but there are 2 problems, first he hits RH, and this is still a RH power heavy lineup unless Teahen takes a huge step forwards. The top and bottom of our lineup has lefties (Teahen, AJ, Pierre) but the middle and the power is Q, Konerko, Rios, Becksy, Ramirez. Another Lefty power bat provides serious balance, and furthermore, we have 2 potential platoon guys to go with a lefty in Flowers and Jones. A RH DH just doesn't set up this lineup well. Second, one thing that is missing from a lot of our guys is significant OBP. Say what you want about guys being base cloggers, one thing I don't see when I look at that lineup is a guy who's going to take a lot of walks and make you throw a lot of pitches. Just for diversity in the lineup, that could well be useful. Screw whether they are lefty or righty. Just get the best hitter you can afford.

Is there anything documented on Cooper having his pitchers tune it down a bit? I know its a popular belief, but I've never seen a quote from him about it. I would think if that really is Cooper's philosophy and the White Sox believe in it, it would be something they would preach at every level. Its tough enough breaking into the big leagues, doing so with an entirely different approach than what you are used to doesn't make much sense. Reading BP, they were pretty high on this guy, but thought 2009 was not the year. He does however have some shoulder problems.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 18, 2009 -> 10:19 PM) OMG no he had a failure! We should stop trading for anything but completely self-contained pitchers! Your insistence on trying to rip me for every post I make is making you not even pay attention to what I write. As I said, I didn't blame Cooper for Contreras' failures, but getting excited because of this notion that Cooper fixes everyone is silly. There have been plenty of guys that haven't exactly panned out.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 18, 2009 -> 07:16 PM) Silva isnt a guy with zero issues either. You cant just look at the player they got rid of. From a player for player standpoint they were incredibly raped. Overall its probably a wash. They obviously weren't getting anything useful for Bradley and saving some money. It wouldn't surprise me if they use the money saved on a CF, I read Ankiel, Byrd or Pods and if Silva is bad in spring training, just waive him. They still come out ahead.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Dec 18, 2009 -> 03:39 PM) God, the Cubs got raped here. It's completly their fault for being so public about the Bradley fiasco too. Yeah, it was such a shock to hear Milton Bradley was a huge asshole. He's never had any problems with the 7 teams he's been with. After all he did actually play 216 games with one team. If this was fantasy baseball, it probably would be a terrible deal. Its real baseball.

QUOTE (striker @ Dec 18, 2009 -> 05:51 PM) Let's just hope Coop does a better job with Dolsi than he did with MacDougal, Sisco, Aardsma, Cotts (after 2005), and Masset. He also needs to fix Linebrink, Pena, Putz and Jenks this year too. I read an interesting quote from Contreras who I read was throwing 95 when he went to Colorado. He said wherever he went, he wanted to take the Colo. pitching coach with him. I'm not blaming Coop for Contreras, but this notiion that he fixes everyone is silly.