Dick Allen

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 12:45 PM) Of course they have budgets. I am sure they have budgets that span the life of all existing contractual obligations. That does not mean they are all as defined as others, nor does it mean that they don't keep them fluid and flexible. These budgets also include all sorts of speculation and prediction, such as attendance, future contracts, planned price hikes, and probably even inflation. I am not an accountant, nor am I an employee of the White Sox FO, but my guess is that the team has an account that is designed to cover operating expenses, such as player payroll, staff payroll, rent, travel, etc. When KW or JR refer to their available funds, they are probably refering to this account. That doesn't mean money can't be borrowed from other sources if a situation presents itself to improve the ballclub (i.e., a star player becomes available via trade because of another team's dire financial situation, etc.). However, that also doesn't mean there is money available which has been earmarked for player payroll. Again, my guess is KW and JR decided to borrow money from other sources to acquire Peavy and Rios, whether those sources be planned future expenditures, in lieu of future captial improvements, etc.. If that is the case, no one is lying to you at all, DA. They are simply trying to make you and the rest of the fanbase happy by making some unforseen acquisitions that can theoretically improve the ballclub. However, aren't elated about that like some other fans are. Instead, you want to roast them over the coals for it. I am an accountant, I understand the game.

QUOTE (BlackBetsy @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 12:34 PM) True. But my guess is that profit as a % of revenue was much higher in say 1986 than it is today. Here's an interesting link to TV revenue (I think this is the combined TV figure) http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/haupert.mlb They have average salary of $410k in 1986, meaning the average team spent $10.6 million on payroll. At $6.21 per ticket x average attendance of 1.79 million, average ticket revenue is $11.0 million. TV revenue logged in at $12.4 million per team. Let's assume that includes the revenues from the cable royalty fund. I'll assume food/beverage/parking net income (i.e., price of food and parking minus costs) of $2 million per team. That's fairly conservative. Let's assume $500k in net income from licensed merchandise. Again, fairly conservative. So we have revenues of $11.0 + $12.4 million = $22.4 million. Salary cost of $10.6 million. Let's assume the team pays rent or stadium maintenance costs of $1 million per year and pays its non-baseball staff another $2 million (that's 70 employees at $30k per year...remember this is 1986). Baseball staff and minor leaguers are maybe $4 million per year more (this is wildly high - 150 minor leaguers making $20k per year plus $1 million to GM + scouts). $22.4 million minus $17.6 million expenses (10.6 + 1 + 2 + 4) = $4.8 million profit. Add back in $2.5 million net income for the food beverage parking and licensed merchandise and you are talking about a business with $7.3 million in profits per year. Given that the Sox were purchased for $20 million in 1980, you can see that it was a pretty profitable operation in the 1980's. I was reading an article by someone a few weeks ago talking about some of the teams whose payrolls are really becoming ridiculously low. He claimed each team gets a $35 million infusion each year from MLB from licensing agreements. There will be a team or 3 next year that will make money if they locked the doors and didn't let anyone into their games.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 11:45 AM) How does the fact that the extensions didn't affect the payroll in-season somehow mean they were budgeted for? JR doesn't give them the budget figure for next season until after this one is over. Didn't you say they don't have budgets, they just fit contracts in? The fact is many obligations expire and many are easier to rid yourself of in the offseason. Plus you give Garland an extension. He goes from $6 million or so to $8-9 million, you are finding space for $2-3 more , not the amount you owe Rios and Peavy. Next year its not so bad with all the money coming off the books. This year, they spent money they said they didn't have whether you want to admit it or not. Money didn't suddenly pop up. Remember KW commenting about the attendance for the Dodgers series? The Boston series was worse and they know the advanced sale and have a pretty good understanding of what realistically to expect as a walk up. Using one of your tactics, isn't it even slightly possible they did have money to spend this year and spent it on Rios and Peavy?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 10:39 AM) Again, from my post: However, the organization will step outside of that mode of operation if it sees an impact player that can be acquired at a reduced price, whether that be in terms of cash or players. The organization will also step up the degree of risk it will assume if it sees an opportunity to make the postseason. As for specific players, I'm thinking many of the additions we have made in the second half of seasons over the past 5 years. Additionally, many of them we are still committed to or have recently traded. 1) Jon Garland 2) Jose Contreras 3) Mark Buehrle 4) Javy Vazquez 5) Paul Konerko 6) Jermaine Dye None of the above extensions added anything to the payroll in-season. Just give me some examples that busted the current (at the time) payroll except technically Konerko, but it was after a WS and money was aplenty. It would have been hard to play the $.50 card then.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 10:05 AM) I could see JR being pissed. But Peavy wasn't going to be ready for a month. And Rios alone wasn't the missing peice. Making the playoffs for 2009 rested on the offense and defense being more consistent, with additional rest, growth, etc, and the pitching staying strong. So far, the offense hasn't fully responded. That is on Dye, PK, Carlos, etc. Peavy and Rios were mostly for 2010. Kenny could sell the deals to possibly improve this year's team [and hence, improve the attendance- though Peavy was known not to be ready for at least a month from the deadline] and make the Sox set for 2010 and beyond. The 5 year $60 million committment he has to Rios probably is reminding him of Julio Cruz.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 09:47 AM) Or Jerry being the business man that he is recognized that there was going to be a time that the prices on these players dropped a lot, because the economy was going into the dumper and he knew there were going to be franchises in trouble. So instead of going after some guys for one year fixes, he waited to see if he could find guys that could be a part of the franchise for years to come. That may very well be, but then he shouldn't be pissed about Peavy and Rios not helping win this year, although there is still a chance. I think they would have to get it down to a 2 or 3 game deficit before the final 9 games for it to be realistic. He also stated when contacted about trading for Peavy a second time, his initial response was "no thank you".

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 09:42 AM) I don't know how obvious the pattern has to be for you to recognize what it is, especially for someone who goes on and on about being a 20 year season ticket holder. The organization does not take financial risks if they can be avoided. However, the organization will step outside of that mode of operation if it sees an impact player that can be acquired at a reduced price, whether that be in terms of cash or players. The organization will also step up the degree of risk it will assume if it sees an opportunity to make the postseason. Otherwise, the organization will operate in a fiscally responsible manner. I don't think KW means literally when he says they have no money that they have no money. It means things are tight and the budget is basically accounted for. If you want to interpret that as meaning there are no funds available, nor are there any funds available in the future, nor will there ever be, that is your prerogative, but that doesn't make Kenny a liar either. Who have they gone out on the limb for, breaking budget to acquire in the past? And if they don't take financial risks if they can be avoided, taking on $115 million worth of contracts with no money left in the budget, would be a huge financial risk.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 09:26 AM) Again, you are being incredibly naive with HOW THE TEAM's FINANCES WORK. They picked up roughly $7 million in contracts for the second half of the season. They've since ditched $2 million in contracts. Do you really find it incredible to believe that they went out and found an alternate source of funding in order to add Peavy and Rios? Or that maybe they were REALLY keeping their fingers crossed that these guys would get us over the hump and pay for themselves by getting us into the postseason? Or that they will have to account for adding this payroll this year by adding less in the first half next year? Will you admit that any of those possibilities exist, instead of your conspiracy theories? Wouldn't the same premise work for some of the bargains available last offseason? They saved $1 million on Thome, they are paying Contreras all but the minumum which is about $65k a month. There are no conspiracy theories. They just weren't being straight when they said they had no money.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 08:40 AM) Well who wouldn't be? We are all pissed off about how poorly they have played. That being said, I doubt JR is stupid enough to believe that simply because we got these two players that we were guaranteed anything. It certainly was a calculated risk that hasn't paid off thus far. However, to me, the blame shouldn't land on the guys we acquired, but on the guys we already had. Additionally, my guess is they were hoping a playoff appearance would offset the expense incurred this season by adding Peavy and Rios to the payroll. Unfortunately it hasn't worked out so far, and as a result, we may have to cut a bit more out of the payroll next season (for the first half, anyways), but this is how this franchise operates. JR definitely would be pissed at no additional revenue from playoff games. I also think JR is probably pissed the team was so awful on that roadtrip a huge amount of season ticketholders skipped buying playoff tickets, which considering the economy etc. will probably result in a lower renewal rate and probably preclude them from raising ticket prices much, if at all, next season.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 07:55 AM) DA, what point are you trying to make? You're saying the same bs as usual. What the f*** do you want, a copy of the team's financials so you can account for every penny they spend? Your view of the financials is incredibly oversimplistic, as if the organization has a checking account where all credits and debits merely come in and go out, and that is the only source of funding available. Come on, man. Your own personal money situation is more complex than that. Why can't you recognize the fact that the organization's financial situation is fluid? They are able to move money around to adjust on the fly if impact players suddenly become available unexpectedly. Again, do you want to hold that against them? I'm not holding it against them. You are missing the point. They said they were broke. KW even mentioned (and I know he's was tongue in cheek) playing day games the last couple months to save on the electric bill. Then they pick up over $100 million in contracts, and he mentions the extra walk up, when they were offering $9 tickets as the catalyst in freeing up some money. They know how many tickets they have sold. They knew well in advance the measely numbers they would have for the Boston series. A 15k walk-up is very rare. When KW says something about possible acquisitions, etc. most everyone agrees not to believe everything he says, there's a method to his madness. I agree with that. What I don't understand is why, if a lot of his comments are a smoke screen or simply aren't true, when he talks about his lack of funds, that is gospel. I'll go back to Forbes. I will consider it fair since KW once used Forbes as a reference with Sox finances when there was a favorable report on net income vs. player payroll ratio. According to them, the White Sox have turned over a $70 million profit the past 3 seasons, thats after they have paid the players. Again, I dont have a problem with the White Sox turning a profit, but don't tell me you spend every dollar that comes in. Maybe this year with the economy and picking up 2 huge contracts in season, something I can't ever recall them doing, it turned out not to be true, but when I got on my bandwagon, they didn't have Peavy or Rios, so despite the criticizms from the guys who pray to KW when they wake up every morning, I apparently was correct.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 13, 2009 -> 12:08 AM) No, I'm not puzzled. It's one thing to sign players prior to the season starting. It's another to add players for 2 months based on your chances to compete for the division. I hate to admit it, Dick. But you're the precise type of fan that causes him to say the things he says. You immediately suspect that the organization is lying about their finances. You assume that they have a secret gold mine underneath US Cellular where they can call upon unlimited funds whenever they are needed. Don't you realize that the organization is basing its ability to pay the salaries of these guys purely on speculation? Don't you realize that KW and Jerry understand that if they stay away from bad contracts they will be able to remain flexible in the future. Meaning they can always trade out of some of these contracts if need be. But to say that they have this money in hand, or somehow budgeted for future seasons is not true. They are simply assuming the contracts won't be albatrosses, and that they will make them fit into the future payroll somehow. Unfortunately, KW has to deal with the likes of Jay Hineybird and every know-it-all fan who expects the White Sox to sign or trade for every high-priced player that becomes available, every year, over and over and over. To sit there and to try and explain to people like that is impossible. Which is why he has to be incredibly simple. You can't spend a dollar if you only have 50 cents. Get it? We aren't signing him. Next. Actually you are wrong. This is the first year I've ever criticized the White Sox about their payroll, and their ticket prices, its the 20th year I've had season tickets. I have criticized his quote before, because its ridiculous he continues to use it. As I stated in a post several months ago, JR should make it a team policy to never mention finances publicly. It really chapped my ass they raised ticket prices after all season ticketholders were committed and then lowered payroll. I felt,and I'm sure other season ticketholders felt, cheated on. They obviously had money in hand, and spent it on 2 guys. They are paying about $2 million for Rios this year and $4 million for Peavy after KW didn't have any money. He was "encouraged" by the 10,000 or so fans that bought $9 tickets, so he spent some money he claimed he didn't have. We've heard for years and years that every dime that comes in, goes back into the team. I always assumed it was probably very close to the truth, but the reality is JR's policy accourding to Brooks Boyer is he doesn't care if he makes any money, he is opposed to losing any money, and that's fine. He has been quoted before as saying he would bust the budget for a player(s) who can pretty much guarantee winning a championship. Spending $6 million alone for 2 months of Rios and Peavy (and I am on record as saying Peavy is KW greatest move) considering Rios is a waiver claim and there was no guarantee Peavy would pitch at all for the Sox this season, indicates these are players that are far from the types who when added, would guarantee a championship. If you really think the White Sox aren't budgeting for future years when picking up both of these contracts, basically calling me simple is pretty ironic. If the White Sox didn't have a bunch of money coming off the books, there is no way they pick both of these guys up.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Sep 12, 2009 -> 07:07 PM) Secondly, DA, this FREAKING OBSESSION you have with the $1/.50 line is incredibly ridiculous. It's like nails on the chalkboard at this point. Honestly, and I say this with all due respect, WHAT THE HELL DO THE WHITE SOX HAVE TO DO TO MAKE YOU STOP BRINGING THAT UP? I ask you that question almost every time you mention this nonsense, and you never answer. So before you bring it up in 2 weeks again in another thread, what do they have to do? Very simple. KW needs to quit saying it. He mentions it almost every season, and said it again a few times this year. Once he stops, I stop. I'm just pointing out what he's saying. Aren't you the least bit puzzled that KW had no money but suddenly found an extra $60 million +, that's more than he's given any other player, except for maybe Konerko, for Alex Rios? Then he calls the team underachievers. Why exactly was Alex Rios available for no players? Could it have been he's an underachiever? If he mentions it next year, considering the amount he spent on a decent but not outstanding player, I may set a record reminding people of the White Sox financial situation.

Alexei went in like a p****.

QUOTE (bobryansson @ Sep 12, 2009 -> 04:06 PM) I'm at the game. Looked out at first. What did replay show? tie

QUOTE (scenario @ Sep 12, 2009 -> 03:58 PM) Not too often you see an inside-the-park homerun look that easy. BTW... on the replay it looked like the ball bounced off of Abreu's head. Were my eyes playing tricks on me or did it? It looked like it, but when I slowed it up, it actually bounced off his right hand.

QUOTE (WilliamTell @ Sep 12, 2009 -> 03:53 PM) INSIDE THE PARK HOMER FOR PODS And he was dogging it the first 100 ft.

Anyone still want Bobby Abreu in RF for the Sox next year?

QUOTE (Nokona @ Sep 12, 2009 -> 03:50 PM) AJ Bench He's been throwing guys out like crazy lately. I don't know if the pitchers are holding them better or the baserunners(and I remember this from my fantasy baseball days as stolen bases seemed to really decrease the second half)are taking a little longer getting to second base.

How many players in baseball, considering age and contracts would you trade Gordon Beckham straight up ?

QUOTE (SouthsideDon48 @ Sep 12, 2009 -> 03:00 PM) I still think Rios needs to get acclimated, and I don't think he'll be his old self till next season. Isn't this the first time he was traded while up at the major league level? It might take getting used to. For now, though, even though his bat is useless, I think he makes up for it with his defense, which I think is better than even Anderson. There's no question he's a better player than what he has shown. Of course, Timo Perez is a better player than what Rios has shown.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 12, 2009 -> 02:51 PM) Let's say this...if KW didn't realize that if he put a waiver claim on Rios, there was a very good shot Torotno would let him go, then he screwed up big time because everyone here realized it the moment we read that a claim had been placed on Rios. There were several baseball executives that didn't think Toronto would do it, although it seemed obvious they should. If KW had been pursuing Rios before, he probably had a pretty good handle on the situation, but if your team is bleeding money and you can get out of a $60 million committment, ownership will make a non baseball decision. It also seemed obvious Orlando Cabrera should have accepted arbitration last year, but he didn't so sometimes obvious always doesn't pan out.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 12, 2009 -> 02:36 PM) So do you think they were making up wanting Rios in the past? Plus knowing the way the Sox do budgets and contracts, there is no way they put out a waiver claim on a guy with $60 million outstanding unless they wanted him long term. This isn't the Yankees we are talking about. The Sox are about as conservative as they come. Heck this would have rated as the biggest free agent signing in team history if it had been done that way. What I am saying is they certainly expected Rios to contribute THIS season and I'm saying if he were a free agent after this year, I don't think there's a chance in hell he would get the contract the White Sox were obligated to assume. I am also saying I'm not so sure KW really wanted to take on the entire contract. They may have wanted him before, but perhaps they wanted Toronto to eat some money or take back a contract like a Linebrink that had some money left. KW said he only had $.50, and Rios cost a lot more than $1.Don't you think its at least slightly possible he didn't think Toronto would give him up for nothing and put a claim in to block him from a team like Detroit? It would have made a lot of sense for Detroit to claim him as they would have saved some money the first year. As I stated before, Rios isn't a bad player and will be much better when he gets out of this funk, but he's not a $60 million guy, and regardless of all the money coming off the books, its still $60 million that is now committed and I feel they could get a bigger bang for their buck than Alex Rios. I also stated this at the time of the claim.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 12, 2009 -> 01:07 PM) Main problems on team of late (during period we fell out of contention) 1.) Bullpen. 2.) Dye/Rios being automatic outs in lineup. 3.) As hyped as our starting pitching is, still inconsistent. Am I forgetting something more obvious? The sad thing is the White Sox lead at least the AL in quality starts.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 12, 2009 -> 11:54 AM) Do you really believe for a second that anyone in the White Sox management group would come out and say, yeah we suck. This is totally for next year, with something like 50-60 games left in the season and us a couple of games out of first place? Do you really believe the Sox would take on a $60 million + contract when they are 3 games out with 2 months to play and think its for next year and not this, especially considering their CF situation, and expect Rios to be as horrible as he's been? Its not like the guy is a rookie who needs a few months of seasoning. The waiver claim, at least for this year, blew up in KW's face, and as I stated earlier, I'm not so convinced he really wanted Rios, he may have been blocking him, but that's another thing I do not think he would ever admit.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 12, 2009 -> 11:08 AM) He has a contract for years... He had better of been thinking of the next few years at least. His quote was when he acquired Peavy and Rios that the Sox were now ready to compete with the big boys, so while he had to have the future in mind considering the contract, and who knows if he really wanted the contract or wanted to block a team like Detroit, who could have picked him up and waived Magglio, actually saving them some money in the short term, from getting him, he definitely was considering 2009 and Rios hasn't performed anywhere near what KW could have possibly expected.