Dick Allen

If this trade was 1 for 1 and the Sox don't spend any of the savings, its a horrible trade, but there is no way that money won't be spent.

QUOTE (Brian @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 08:06 PM) Would of rather have shipped Thome or Kong somewhere. So, probably would KW, but its probably not possible.

QUOTE (AWhiteSoxinNJ @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 08:03 PM) who quoted a unnamed source, not himself. Yes, but..................McCoy is the longest tenured beat writer in the game. A HOFer. I'm pretty sure he has great sources and probably wouldn't run it like he did if he wasn't certain of its accuracy. I hope it is wrong.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 08:00 PM) It's hard to take this seriously until we get more than 1 anonymous source saying it's a done deal. FWIW, Hal McCoy is a HOF baseball writer.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 07:50 PM) I would rather sign Ibanez to a 2 year deal than sign Abreu or Dunn to 3-4 year deals. That gives us more flexibility going forward. The other question mark is Pat Burrell. Essentially, they could flip Dye for Bailey and then replace Dye's RH bat with Burrell and move Quentin to RF. and maybe end up paying Burrell $2-3 million less than they were going to pay JD. Burrell is too streaky and can't run a lick. I think KW is going for a different type. Dunn would be great if the Sox didn't have a DH. I still think Abreu is a strong possibility. He's the type of offensive player the Sox are looking for although his defense at this stage isn't a perfect match for a young pitching staff that's going to need some help from its defense.

I hope they use the financial savings on major league players.

According to this source, its a done deal: http://www.middletownjournal.com/s/content...8spredsweb.html Hal McCoy is a pretty respected baseball journalist.

QUOTE (forrestg @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 12:31 PM) OC has value maybe not 9 million this year. With arbitration I believe it is based on 08 salary and stats. THerefore from the sox he would get arb at about the same figures.. SOmeone mentioned it is not guaranteed so we could cut him for just cause.. Last year OC did contribute to the sox's success. We now can't trade him unless we can come to terms with him say he accepted 9.2 million we then could trade OC anytime we wished. Even giving our trading partner cash with the transaction like the angels gave us in 08. I think that his value will increase as the number of top ss like furcal have completed their 09 deals.. I've always thought if he accepts arb he will get between $11-12 million. Shockingly, Heyman at SI put what he thought he would get at the exact same figure. He still thinks is less than 50/50 OC accepts and uses Renteria's contract as a measuring stick, but I did read where SF way overbid for Renteria, that he probably wasn't going to be able to get more than 2 years at $6 million per. I also read where the Dodgers had very little interest in OC in a Rosenthal column. When OC was acquired KW attempted to get him to sign an extension. It would be interesting to see if it ever got to the point terms were discussed, and if they were, how high the White Sox were willing to go. If he declines, KW should contemplate becoming a professional dodge ball player. Fukudome, Jered Wright, trading Garland for Erstad only to have the Angels ownership squash it, the Ordonez extension that was rejected, having Hawk change his mind about AJ, and this...........he'd probably rule that sport.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 11:13 AM) http://www.thescoreboards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18935 I couldn't find the result of the grievance, but it looks like the Padres had to pay 1/4th of his salary as "severance," so the White Sox theoretically could lose $2.5 million if they went that route. Of course, they'd be much better off holding onto Cabrera....he could get something much better than Jon Adkins in return, that only happened because all the clubs thought that the Type A/B compensation system was going out the window that offseason (didn't happen) and some teams got burned, like the White Sox. Of course, the Sox had no desire to hold onto Durham, and they saved money on Durham's contract while trying out Willie Harris there over the final months of the season. Walker was released during spring training when he was really struggling. He then signed a minor league contract with Oakland and was released a couple months later. The Padres would be within their rights to release him if they felt his skills had diminished. His release by Oakland probably confirmed that. I think that's probably why it went away. So to release OC during spring training, he's going to have to show a loss of skill, and probably whoever picks him up will have to verify that loss is some way. IF the Sox released him and he signed a minor league contract somewhere else or even something for the minimum and he wound up doing what he's been doing the last several years at the major league level, the Sox would probably wind up having to pay him at least what he was out by the release. Unless OC simply has lost it, you are probably better off eating half the contract and giving him to someone else. The release has to be a baseball decision, not a financial one.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 10:39 AM) Let's back up...we haven't seen any offers or what's available to O-Cab, because his negotiations haven't been public like with Furcal. That doesn't mean he doesn't have any offers. We do know ONE team was willing to give Renteria, who's valued as a lesser player and was run out of DET on a rail essentially, an average of $9.25 milllion per season over two years. Of course, some GM's and "insiders" say that was a crazy move by SF and they were essentially bidding against themselves. We do know that Minnesota, Oakland, Baltimore, Cleveland and the Dodgers remain in the market for a SS, and possibly the Blue Jays. Oakland, Baltimore and the Dodgers look like good possibilities. We do know that Minnesota has passed on Blake at 3 years and $20 million, so they're more likely to want to make a move at SS OR trade Beltre for Delmon Young, who they've put on the market because of dissatisfaction with his attitude, defense, baserunning and lack of power. Rosenthal in an article a couple of days ago, said the Dodgers have very little interest in Cabrera. Oakland was going 4 years at $9 mill a year for Furcal. I'm guessing they would go shorter and cheaper for Cabrera. Remember only the studs of this FA class have been offered more than 2 years thus far. Cleveland isn't going to spend 8 figures on a SS. Baltimore? I really doubt it. The Blue Jays laid off front staff personnel. They aren't going to overpay a soon to be 35 year old SS. That leaves Minnesota. a few things, they are known to be as frugal as they come. They build from the farm and probably value low first rounders as much as anyone, let alone giving them to a division rival. Also , the reasons you say they don't like Delmon Young are are looking to move him, are ironically the same issues OC has according to many posts in this thread.

QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Dec 7, 2008 -> 10:01 AM) You can trade him earlier if you get his permission http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=1114 But there is a big problem with that. There aren't teams that appear to want to pay him anything near what he gets in arbitration, plus he probably would refuse to go to a bad team. The teams looking for SS right now, are looking for cheaper options. When KW gets control, many teams will know if they are contending or not. You may find a spot for him, but only a contender, and they probably wouldn't give up anything at all, and might request the White Sox eat money, like they did with Ray Durham in order to get the great Jon Adkins. If they were willing to trade for him in January or February or whenever his salary is determined, they probably could sign him right now to a deal like that with perhaps an option. Face it, Cabrera from here on out, even if he remains a type A FA probably will never be offered arbitratiion again, unless a team wants to keep giving a 35 year old SS a raise.

Today is the day Cabrera has to make his decision. I read where the Dodgers have little interest in him. I also read something where a baseball executive was astounded by what Renteria got with the Giants saying he couldn't have received more than 2 years at $6 mill a year anywhere else. I predict he accepts arbitration. I just hope if he does accept and people here are pissed about it, their anger isn't directed at Cabrera. I don't like the any guy any more than anyone here, but if he accepts the White Sox offer, he has done nothing wrong. It wouldn't be acting like an asshole.

QUOTE (santo=dorf @ Dec 6, 2008 -> 04:55 PM) Perhaps he should be less slappy and hit for more power. Why is it when a runner is on base he only distracts the pitcher, not the hitter? Why should Cabrera get credit for those SB's that were on strikeouts if he was only running because Ozzie was calling for a hit and run? It's kinda like a consolation prize. Cabrera scored 93 runs. Podsednik was considered MVP-worthy when he scored 80.

QUOTE (Kalapse @ Dec 6, 2008 -> 12:40 PM) Khalil Greene is a defensive whiz with incredible power potential/production (when he's away from Petco). Please explain his .542 road OPS in 2008. As long as you're ripping Cabrera for being "underwhelming" in 2008, I'm sure you'll have a reason for the absolutely pathetic numbers Greene put up away from Petco. Juan Uribe has gotten on base at a better clip than Mr. Greene the past 2 seasons.

QUOTE (BaseballNick @ Dec 6, 2008 -> 12:13 PM) Bobby Crosby and Khalil Greene are underwhelming major league shortstops. Orlando Cabrera is not. And ironically there have been posts on this board in favor of acquiring either of the names mentioned.

QUOTE (fathom @ Dec 6, 2008 -> 09:01 AM) For everyone clamoring for OC to return, you fail to realize that this wasn't in the plans that KW had. Thus, who knows what other deals he wanted to make will be impossible due to the financial ramifications if OC returns. I assume that the Swisher and Javy trades weren't made with OC returns in mind. For sure. It makes it even more silly he actually has to sweat this out, all for 2 draft picks chances are will not amount to anything. If he does refuse it, KW should thank his lucky stars and use the money OC would have received, draft 2 guys who slipped because of signability issues and pay them both over slot.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 6, 2008 -> 07:08 AM) You could say "they suck/ed" about 1/2 the players the White Sox have brought in over the last ten years...I'll highlight some particular names for you. Contreras D. Hermanson Politte Thornton Jenks Marte Uribe Gavin Floyd Alexei Ramirez Esteban Loaiza El Duque Tadahito Iguchi Jermaine Dye (not that he sucked, just was a big risk coming off injuries) Javier Vazquez Scott Podsednik Octavio Dotel Miguel Olivo Sure, there will always be plenty of Julio Ramirezes and DeAngelo Jimenezes to go around, Sisco, Aardsma, MacDougal, etc., but we have a pretty darn good track record of maximizing the potential of many of the prospects/suspects and undervalued veterans we've acquired in recent years. Sure, Nick Swisher was a pretty big disappointment, but he wasn't a big enough problem to keep up from winning the division, thanks to the likes of DeWayne Wise. Of that entire list, very few have had sustained success. Dye has, but he at least had a track record earlier in his career, and Jenks. Other than that, except for Ramirez, each has for a time sucked as a member of the White Sox. Some, like Hermanson could be from injury, some just went back to sucking.

Furcal hasn't ruled out joining the A's, but he wasn't willing to take a paycut to do it. While the A's were willing to give him the four-year deal he desired, the proposal didn't top $10 million per season. With the Giants also perhaps out of the mix, Furcal is left without an obvious suitor at the moment. He'll get his money, but he might have to settle for three years. As for the A's, they'll begin looking elsewhere for upgrades. They need at least one starter -- Randy Johnson is a possibility -- and they could always add another big bat, perhaps even Adam Dunn. From rotoworld. Makes you wonder what kind of contract is available to OC.

"We saw an opportunity to acquire one of the best shortstops in the game and one of the smartest shortstops in the game. Somebody who can fit into the No. 2 spot in our lineup for 155 games,'' Chicago general manager Ken Williams said, adding the trade frees up money that could help the White Sox pull off another deal. -KW after getting OC a year ago. He has done nothing since to make him a back-up to the likes of Getz, Lillibridge and Nix.

QUOTE (shipps @ Dec 5, 2008 -> 02:09 PM) Has the thread title changed recently or am I way behind? Cabrera has definetly excepted arb? I read that earlier. Last I heard he said there was a slight chance he'd accept.

QUOTE (G&T @ Dec 5, 2008 -> 08:03 AM) KW's idea of a 1 or 2 is different than most people's idea. He'll take 1 or 2 potential. Last year he called Floyd and Danks 1 and 2...and everyone laughed. He called Gio a #1 as well.

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 5, 2008 -> 01:49 PM) I think for every post you've made criticizing KW for offering arbitration... there would be 5 posts criticizing him if we didn't and missed out on the picks. I didn't know that would influence KW's decision. Thanks for the insight. The only thing I've criticized is offering arbitration if you aren't prepared to have him come back. Obviously, its still possible he will. Ozzie doesn't seem to mind if he does.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 5, 2008 -> 01:37 PM) 1) We signed Viciedo, Beckham and Danks....that, in and of itself, is more or less the equivalent of 3 first round draft picks, and two Top 10 draft picks in Beckham and Viciedo 2) KW and the scouting department, up until this last draft at least, have been much better at identifying undervalued but high upside players in other organizations, rather than drafting them out of HS or college 3) You add Marquez, Jimenez, Nix, Lillibridge, Nunez, Flowers, Gilmore and Santos Rodriguez, that's two more first rounders right there, and lots of upside/potential, especially from Flowers...whatever happens, the world will not end over these draft picks. I mean, we traded Ray Durham for Jon Adkins and lost a draft pick there (largely because KW and JR felt that the compensation system was going to be changed that offseason, so they would theoretically get nothing back and they also wanted to see Willie Harris at 2B, so they saved a couple of million in salary as well). You have made my point that offering the arbitration if you really don't want him, is way too risky for a couple of draft picks.

QUOTE (scenario @ Dec 5, 2008 -> 01:36 PM) OK.... help me out here. Is your solution to this problem? (a) we shouldn't have offered Cabrera arbitration at all (B) KW should have just kept his mouth shut and not said he'd ride the bench © other (describe) As I stated earlier, way before arbitration had to be offered, if the White Sox didn't want Cabrera on the team, especially at the price his arbitration status will bring, they should not offer him arbitration. With the current economy, his arb figure is too much of a risk for a supplemental draft pick and a low first or high second round selection. I also believe KW shouldn't have said what he said. Ozzie said something totally different today.