Dick Allen

QUOTE(thedoctor @ Jan 4, 2006 -> 12:14 PM) it must be difficult to eat a steak that way. That's pretty good

I like the Chop House, Sullivan's makes a nice steak. My brother sends me some steaks every year from the supplier of most of the steakhouses, Allen brothers I believe, so my favorite steak is one I make on my 20 year old basic Weber.

QUOTE(JimH @ Jan 4, 2006 -> 09:07 AM) What does Vazquez have to do with the topic you brought up, which was Contreras' value? There is a big difference, Vazquez is signed, Contreras is not. Actually those 200+ innings for most seasons of Vazquez's career show me he's pretty consistent. His control has been consistent, no doubt about that. I wonder if his propensity to throw strikes caused him to give up HR's in that thin air of Arizona and Los Angeles. Contreras is signed for 2006. Vazquez is signed through 2007 with an arbitration year which I can't see the White Sox going through. If he pitches well they will probably have to pay him at least $16 million, if he pitches like he has the last 2 seasons they will be counting the hours until his contract expires.

JimH, Contreras might have been maddening inconsistent, but so has your boy who will be paid more than Contreras, Javier Vazquez. Vazquez had 9 games in the NL last season where he gave up 5 earned runs or more. If I and others are overvaluing Contreras, you are overvaluing Vazquez who has never pitched well for a team down the stretch in a pennant race or in the playoffs.

QUOTE(fathom @ Jan 4, 2006 -> 08:53 AM) There sure seems to be a lot of excuses for him in the past. Even though I think he'll be a good contributor for the Sox, I don't know how anyone can say his last two seasons haven't been disappointing. I'm sure the Yankees and Diamondbacks weren't exactly thrilled with his performance. He was so screwed up the second half of 2004 the Yankees thought he had to be hurt.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 4, 2006 -> 08:35 AM) Sorry, but I have to agree with Jim here. Vazquez is a durable workhorse who would be a decent #2 pitcher on a lot of teams. What you call "two underachieving years" (4.91 and 4.42 ERA) I call "one underachieving year with very solid career numbers outside of it and an excelltn #5 pitcher for any team." Weaver would also be a very good #5 on most teams, but Vazquez has better stuff and more upside. For a guy making $12.5 million, his ERA being higher than the league ERA the last 2 seasons is a little disconcerning. If those aren't considered underachieving years for Javier Vazquez, what would be? His ERA has been worse than league average, so you must be saying since he hasn't underachieved in your eyes he's a little bit below average starter.

QUOTE(JimH @ Jan 4, 2006 -> 08:19 AM) What's equal value? Although I wouldn't do it, I could understand Contreras going as part of a package for Tejada. Frankly, I don't see many matches. I wouldn't mind a top of the line closer. I don't know how Jenks will hold up frankly, and it would be a luxury to move him back to middle relief. Contreras is a #1 starter making $8 million this year, he should bring back a surefire impact player or 2. Trading Contreras for this Houston package presents other problems. What if a White Sox pitcher got hurt? What if BMac pitches like he did the first time he was called up? Pitching wins. I'll take Anderson and his growing pains in CF any day with Contreras playing out his contract. There's nothing to say that if Contreras plays this year out he wouldn't sign with the Sox anyway, or they could use that money bring in another player and sign Buerhle and/or Garcia for a few more years. For 2006 Contreras > Taveras, Qualls, and any Houston prospect.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 10:56 PM) O please Dick, your smarter than that to compare the stuff on Javier Vazquez to Jon Adkins. The way I am looking at all this is sort of simple. Last season, im sure prior to the Lee-Podsednik deal, you would have said trading a young 30 HR guy for a .313 OBP was the dumbest move in Sox history. Kenny filled a need, and I think it worked out, well, ok. :rolly I love Contreras. He quickly became one of my favorite White Sox players in 2005. I told Greasy on AIM that I would take a big hit to the Sox heart if he leaves. HOWEVER, if we can fill 3 needs( getting a CF to give Anderson some competition, get a SOLID pen arm in Qualls, and also help get our farm system a little more help in a mid to high level prospect, I would certainly look at the deal. Sometimes the talent you give up doesnt always have to equate what you get back. Maybe you do, but this certainly isn't the time. To trade someone just because he doesn't have a contract for next year is silly. A year from now if Buerhle isn't signed, should the Sox trade him? To trade someone just because he can bring back muliple players is silly. The White Sox are defending their title and management appears to be sticking their financial necks out in order to repeat. You don't trade Contreras unless you are getting equal value for a guy who probably was the best pitcher in baseball from the middle of July thru October. The Sox have a few guys they could trade to fill multiple holes. They could have done it with Konerko last year. Good thing they didn't. I'm sure Buerhle could bring back players at several positions, but that would not be wise. My reference to Cooper is it appears many on this board think Cooper can turn dust to gold. He can't, no one can. He's a great pitching coach, but some people on here think its automatic he takes a guy who has been around or below a .500 pitcher even though he has great stuff, even though he walks few and strikes out many, his entire career, and suddenly make him a first ballot Hall of Famer.

I know he struggled in the minors last year, but does anyone know if Carlos Hernandez reinjured himself? If not, I think KW should try and bring him into spring training. Another year after surgery may be the ticket this guy needs to get back up to speed. Pun is intended.

QUOTE(mr_genius @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 10:05 PM) I hope KW decides to keep Count (unless we get a great offer) I think we're gonna need him in the rotation and McCarthy out of the Pen. Even if he doesn't sign at the end of the year we still get his services for this years WS run (obviously). I don't buy the "just trade him so we don't end up getting nothing for him at the end of the season". That's why you're a genius.

QUOTE(maggsmaggs @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 09:51 PM) In the year 2004, he was in New York and plenty good pitcher have done poorly there because of the New York factor. In 2005, he was with Arizona and the thin air there causes the curve to lose its bite, look at how poorly pitchers do in spring training. Looking at his scouting report, he holds runners on and plays defense. He has dynamic stuff, is as durable as it comes, has a high strike out to walk ratio. This guy has it all and Coop has been known to maximize potential in pitchers (Gar, Loiaza, Count, even Burls to an extent.) What's not to like about Vazquez? Contreras with with the Sox a year before he turned it around. To expect Cooper to magically turn a guy into a stud is asking too much. If it were that easy Jon Adkins, Felix Diaz, Arnie Munoz etc. would be contending for a Cy Young year in year out. Vazquez obviously is durable and talented, but that doesn't always translate into success. Vazquez was brutal the second half of his one season with the Yankees with an ERA near 7, and had an ERA over 9.00 in 11 playoff innings that year. Although its a small sample size his ERA against Detroit was over 6.00, against Cleveland it was over 10.00 and against Detroit it was over 16.00. You say the New York factor, there are more than a couple people getting paid by MLB teams who think Vazquez can't handle the big stage. The 2006 White Sox will be the big stage. I agree with Fathom, Vazquez is a big question mark. The guy might win 20 or he might not be .500.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 09:19 PM) Ah yes, a good cf who could hit at the top of the order, a very good reliever, and a top prospect. Like I said, I don't want to trade JC at all but if we do that is definitely a package I'd look at. Astro fans at baseballthinktank.com have a different perspective on Taveras' defensive talents. They say he throws well but doesn't get good jumps or take good routes to balls. They said a lot of balls drop that shouldn't. The guy hit .291 but his only other plus was steals. His OBP was not too impressive. He could just as easily be the next Pat Listach or Jerome Walton. A prospect probably wouldn't help in 2006. Qualls is decent, but Contreras was arguably the best pitcher in baseball the second half of the season and he should net a bunch more than that package if he were to be traded. There is no impact player in there.

QUOTE(Rowand44 @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 08:53 PM) There is no doubt about that. I'm a fan of Taveras, I'd personally love him hitting 2nd. Anyways, I've said before I do not want to trade JC. If we do trade him however, Taveras, Qualls, and Hirsh is something I would like the Sox to look into. If KW made that trade, he should immediately be fired.

QUOTE(SEALgep @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 06:56 PM) Don't know if this was posted, but can Preston Wilson's signing be a way for them to play him in CF, making Tavarez expendable so to say? Maybe, but odds are that Bagwell is done and Berkman moves to first, opening an outfield spot for Wilson.

The White Sox had/have a policy that they didn't/don't go more than 3 years with a pitcher's contract. They were going to make an exception to that with Alex Fernandez because of his age, and what they considered excellent mechanics. They got f'd over by Boras as Alex went to Florida where he quickly blew out his arm. It probably cemented that policy even more. I believe just about every pitcher will eventually have problems with his shoulder or elbow.

QUOTE(CanOfCorn @ Jan 3, 2006 -> 12:15 PM) Don't know if this has been posted, but the Astros are talking about signing Preston Wilson. Who has played CF for most of his career. This doesn't mean they will keep him in CF...but it's interesting since we've been talking about Taveras a lot here lately. Houston Chronicle Personally, I don't think the Astros are as sold on Taveras as WCSox. He was benched during the NLCS, and the Astros need a little more punch in their line-up, something Taveras most likely wouldn't provide even if he hired Jose Canseco as his personal trainer.

A lot of people seemed worried about losing Contreras and not getting anything in return. How about letting Contreras pitch out the season, and if he doesn't re-sign, take the money set aside for re-signing him and go after another free-agent, or take another financially challenged teams salary dump. Letting Contreras walk doesn't necessarily mean getting nothing for him.

Jeter is the better all around hitter. He also operates under a microscope in NY which makes his accomplishments more impressive. Uribe is a good SS. He just doesn't have the baseball IQ of a player like Jeter.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Jan 2, 2006 -> 12:23 PM) Despite what the Kool-Aid drinkers think, Jeter has always been a very good defensive SS. Certainly not on Ozzie Smith or Omar Vizquel's level, but still an excellent defensive player. The only thing that Uribe has over Jeter is youth. I think Uribe has a stronger arm, and probably a little more power. Jeter is not too quick defensively up the middle. Obviously Jeter is a better all around player, but certainly not as much as their salary differences would insinuate.

QUOTE(JimH @ Jan 2, 2006 -> 10:29 AM) Yeah, I watched the whole postseason and the parade. I also know how Williams and Reinsdorf like to run the franchise which is something you are still unable or unwilling to grasp. Tejada's postseason stats? Please, stop it. You can manipulate small samples any way you want. Tejada is arguably the top SS in the game. The point, which I will reiterate because you are unable to grasp it, is if Contreras indicates an unwillingness to sign an extension, the Sox will move him rather than lose him for nothing. If he signs, great, I love a deep pitching staff. If he won't sign, I want the best possible return. I suspect this is what Williams is thinking, again, I am trying to think along with him vs. what you do, which is throw out your opinion and ignore the way they do business. It appeared, and who really knows the whole story, like KW was more prepared to move Garland if he didn't sign than Contreras, who he said he would have to be overwhelmed to move. The White Sox appear to be leaking bad information, because the 2 guys who report on this situation the most, Levine and Cowley, and thus far been pretty wrong with their information. It could be KW thinks Contreras would be easier to sign if he played out the season with the Sox. Chances are other teams would be reluctant to give him a 5 year contract, whereas Garland, if he pitches in 2006 like he did in 2005 would have probably got 5. Personally, I think KW and JR are all about 2006 right now, and won't trade Contreras unless its a deal they feel makes the 2006 roster stronger.

QUOTE(jackie hayes @ Jan 1, 2006 -> 06:33 PM) I don't think Taveras is a bad player, but all this 'oh you evil stats people' is bs. Look at the stats or don't, I don't care, Taveras has zero power. I don't want 2 places in the lineup (in the outfield, no less) occupied by players with flyswatter bats. I agree that obp is more important than power at the top of the lineup, but I think it's absurd to jettison pop entirely. The other problem is if he were to bat ninth or second, he would be back to back with Pods. That's 2 guys back to back that are going to have a tough time driving in a run from third with less than two out. And before I get jumped on by people saying it wouldn't be his job to drive in runs, Iguchi drove home a lot from the 2 hole. Uribe and Crede drove home their fair share from the 9 hole. Having 2 guys in your line-up in the AL who would be hard pressed to drive home 35 runs a piece is not good.

If Taveras is such a great player, why was he benched for 2 games in the NLCS?

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Dec 31, 2005 -> 04:59 PM) Not to mention the fact that Taveras's 2005 season really wasn't all that great. Well, it was great if you only look at things like AVG and SB. Beat me.

QUOTE(SSH2005 @ Dec 31, 2005 -> 04:55 PM) But your argument is that Willy Taveras is a "proven player" because of his one good season (2005). Shingo was also good for only one season (2004). Couldn't Taveras very well suck in 2006 just like Shingo did in 2005? A "proven player" is a player who has put up more than one good season. And when you look at Taveras' one season, it isn't all that stellar. Its not like they are making room for him in Cooperstown.

QUOTE(WCSox @ Dec 31, 2005 -> 04:54 PM) They traded Shingo after only 31 appearances and a disasterous 5.91 ERA. And, IIRC, Hermanson was still the closer at that point. Comparing Shingo's performance to Taveras' is just silly. But Shingo's ERA in 2004 was stellar, so by your definition it shows he should still be far more effective than a guy like Jenks who replaced him who never pitched above AA.