Dick Allen

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:43 AM) Don't forget Guerra, Devenski, Harrell...Montas is one of the few legit success stories, then you really have to go back to Hudson and relievers like Reed and Santos prior to that. But you have told us many times Hector Santiago's floor was a #3 starter.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:19 AM) Everyone is entitled to an opinion. But if it not the same as yours, they are crazy.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 10:00 AM) No, I'm not. Rick Hahn is. I would have no problem with Rodon having been in AAA last year and Fulmer being in AA this year. The White Sox are the ones insisting these guys are mid rotation and back of the bullpen contributors on a contending team right now. He's hoping.You're the one saying their developmental reputation needs to be questioned in part because guys drafted in 2014 and 2015 aren't dominating major league hitters. BTW, Rodon has been looking pretty good since his DL stint.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:53 AM) My point in short form - their development is not "so good you should never question their decisions". We have heard that in this thread with Burdi, we heard that with Fulmer being put in the bullpen, we heard that with Rodon being called up, we heard that with Shields being acquired. They are not terrible at it. Their pitching development is not a wasteland. Next year it could look great again. But from 2014-2016 it is not doing what this franchise requires it to do, and as a consequence pitching remains a need at the big league level. But you are asking for guys like Rodon and Fulmer to be really effective right away. Who from those drafts have done that to this point? Rodon actually leads his draft in WAR.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:44 AM) Look how far back you had to go though. Santiago arrived in 2012. Reed arrived in 2012. If those guys were still here they'd have 1 year before free agency. If they were still here, Cleveland would still have a better rotation than us. The pitching development isn't terrible, as you point out it's better than position player development, but it's not so incredible that everyone should stop questioning what they're doing with these guys. 5 years ago you could make that case, but 5 years in MLB is a long time. They developed Montas enough he went from a throw in to a part of a trade for an All Star 3B. They developed another throw in enough to acquire Lawrie. Nate Jones looks pretty good. It probably hasn't been as good as they want to make it, but it isn't as bad as you are suggesting. I always thought their starting pitching development was a bit overrated, but for years, they have had relievers all over baseball.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:31 AM) That fits into the "no one in the pipeline right now" part. There's no depth in the organization either because of those trades. They haven't developed back of the rotation guys or middle relief that well either. Putnam and Petricka fit into that category so it isn't zero, but the lack of depth is another part of this season. They established a guy like Rienzo enough to get Jennings. They established Santiago enough to get Eaton. Addsion Reed was developed decently, and traded, and most here were pretty happy with the return. I think you are selling them short a bit here. They haven't been a pitching developmental factory, but they have probably been above average. Compared to their position player developmental prowess, it looks huge.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 09:08 AM) It's time to start going after the bolded, because I think there's now a strong case that this organization is resting on reputation alone in terms of developing pitchers. Go back 5 years, and they developed 2 very good starting pitchers. They deserve all the credit for that in the world, those 2 guys are strong, but they're literally carrying this staff. They haven't developed a successful, mid to top of the rotation starter in 5 years. Had it not been for the contract Chris Sale signed he would be a free agent at the end of this year. They have a solid rotation because of one of a handful of positive things Rick Hahn did for this franchise - locking those 2 starters up early. Overall though the picture at the big league level is bleak. The Sox have a slightly better team ERA than Detroit, but Detroit has a slightly higher team fWAR from their staff. Cleveland has a significantly better team ERA than the White Sox. The White Sox's supposed plan was to develop enough pitching to have that carry them, right? Well 3rd best staff in the division doesn't get you there. And that's not without throwing substantial resources at the staff. They signed a big money closer. They took on payroll in adding a pitcher this year. And they have invested 2 top-10 picks in their rotation the last 3 years. Look deeper and you'll get even more concerned. They clearly had no idea where Rodon or Fulmer were going to be this year and overestimated how ready both of them were. They could still turn things around, both are young, but so far these guys are mediocre starters with good fastballs that the White Sox haven't developed as fast as they insisted they could. They made decisions this year expecting both would be strong contributors and they were clearly wrong. Someone in this organization that is supposed to know pitching told Rick Hahn that James Shields was fixable or had something left. They spent big money on Robertson and he's underwhelmed. They also have little to no depth in their starters. Take a look at the guy going last night. There isn't much in the pipeline right now that can step in when someone goes on the DL or someone struggles, other than a replacement-level/waiver wire acquisition. There is no one about ready to break in from AAA. What else have they developed over the past 5 years? Maybe you give them credit for guys they traded away, Santiago Bassitt and Montas, but those guys have had a lot of work done by other organizations too. If pitching is supposed to be the thing they're trading away to build up the rest of their roster, they have a pretty weak roster and they still have pitching needs. This could turn around next year. There's talent in Rodon and Fulmer, James Shields could find his previous self, and Hansen could darn well be the next Scherzer. The investment they've put into finding pitching could pay off. But as of right now, this is a team that hasn't developed a mid-rotation starter or back of the bullpen pitcher in 5 years. This is a team where we're not supposed to question their pitching development, but they have major needs of starting pitching and relief pitching. They're separated from having the worst rotation in their division not by what they've developed, but by contracts that guys signed. They're resting on reputation right now. Then you have no problem with the team trading prospects who obviously will never be any good, for established players.

QUOTE (Coach @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 08:57 AM) Beside, I am not concerned about other teams. But you are blaming it on the manager, so there currently are 30 managers you would have a problem with.

QUOTE (Coach @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 08:55 AM) Is jogging to 1st base ok with you then? No its not. But most run hard to first. Not like it used to be with the team when not many people complained. Back in the mid 00s, I read an article quoting a scout how they couldn't get White Sox players times to 1B because no one busted it down the line. For the most part they do now, but again, you see that all around baseball. If you are hanging that on a manager, you are going to have a hard time finding a guy to manage your team.

QUOTE (Coach @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 08:47 AM) Oh Dickie, I have seen a few times during the season where the outfielder was trying to get the out at home with no chance. Not even close. But in the meantime, the runner advances to 2nd. That's called throwing to the wrong base and not knowing the situation. Sorry to burst your bubble. If it happened, it isn't a chronic problem that happened any more often than it does with any other team. When Austin Jackson was out there, the Sox OF defense was really good. I would imagine the White Sox are pretty highly ranked in OF assists this season. They haven't won enough games, but it isn't because of throwing to the wrong base or lack of effort .

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 08:47 AM) Injuries are a poor excuse. They've just under an average number of injuries, way more than last year, but they're no where near as banged up as teams like Texas and Los Angeles have been. They seem like they're unusually banged up because for the last couple years they've been unbelievably healthy and so a return to "below average" number of injuries from "record low" seems like a major jump. If at the start of the year you picked 7 or 8 guys that this team couldn't afford to have go on the DL (Abreu, Eaton, Sale, Frazier, Quintana, Robertson, Lawrie, Cabrera, Rodon, Jones) none of them have had DL stints. Rodon was on the DL. Lawrie is on the DL.

QUOTE (Coach @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 08:25 AM) The Sox woes this year are not entirely Robin's fault. They have had their fair share of injuries. However, as I have said, more than a few on the team seem to not play with 100% effort. And let us not forget the lack of fundamentals from bad base running to throwing to the wrong base. I have also seen players jogging to 1st base on routine grounders. Sure, this is the big league and will be normally out, but hustle puts pressure on the other team to make the play. All it takes is hustle to try and beat the throw. If the player is safe, that is a potential run. If a player does not hustle, he shows he does not care. That to me is unacceptable at any level. This part is on Robin and management for not promoting effort is everything. Bottom line, winning baseball starts with a winning attitude. Robin is in his final month and a half as a White Sox manager, but let's not make things up. This team gives full effort. They have come back from being down many times, including last night. And I don't know how anyone can say they are throwing to the wrong base this season. That's just untrue.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Aug 18, 2016 -> 07:02 AM) In terms of long term impact and development, im more excited about those walks from Anderson than if they were hits. He has gotten a lot of 3 ball counts during his time, but showing the ability to lay off and take ball 4 portends well....gotta throw him a strike to get him out. If he is swinging at strikes, his walk total doesn't really matter. But I do agree he does get a lot of ball 3 counts. He has gone out of the zone many times after that. I think with time he will walk more. Never a lot, but something more normal. One odd stat on Anderson is only Abreu and Melky have grounded into more DP. And if you did it per plate appearance, Anderson would lead the team.

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 06:46 PM) Isn't it amazing he didn't pull a homer all year in AAA It jumps off his bat the other way as well. The first time I saw him live I was sitting on the club level first base side and he hit a foul ball into the RF corner that wasn't a line drive and got out there what seemed to me to be incredibly quick. I dismissed it in my mind thinking I have never really heard Anderson and power mentioned together. But he has a lot. Obviously, he needs some polishing, but he is potentially a really big offensive threat.

Anderson has a lot more power than advertised.

Ranaudo is not a major league pitcher

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 03:12 PM) The Reds did try to make Chapman a starter. http://grantland.com/the-triangle/r-i-p-to...roldis-chapman/ You consider that trying to make him a starter? They brought him up as a reliever and never changed. He signed as a starter. Got 13 starts when he signed. All of his other "starts" were rehab assignements where he went 1 inning.

QUOTE (bmags @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 02:58 PM) Yeah this is my beef with what has taken place since draft. He was drafted and it was "oh Sox must think he can start" then we hear Hostetler say they'll decide in offseason, which makes sense. But if they bring him up it just screams to me that this is the start of his career as a reliever and there will be no attempt to stretch him out in offseason. They know he doesn't have the command to be a starter yet. He throws 102. That's pretty good. Was it wrong the Reds didn't try to make Chapman a starter? One problem with guys that have this gift of triple digit gas out of the bullpen, you make them a starter, and suddenly it's 94 or 95. If it doesn't work out, many times it doesn't come back. If this guy is Nate Jones or Bobby Jenks, or someone of that ilk, it was a good pick. If he becomes an elite closer, we will be very happy the Sox decided to spend the 26th pick on a reliever. I am of the belief they are not going to stretch him out. I guess a good question for the people opposed is if your scouts think this guy's ceiling is an elite closer and he has 102 MPH gas, what is the highest position he should be drafted? Is the second round OK? The White Sox just need as many guys possible to be successful. What round they ultimately were drafted in makes no difference after the signing bonuses are paid.

QUOTE (Jake @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 02:32 PM) Regarding Hansen, I have to take a college pitcher's rookie league production with a huge grain of salt. Of course, but the good thing is, the numbers couldn't be expected to be better, and if he can get his mechanics right and throw strikes, he is a top of the rotation possibility. Right now, many of this draft's selections look great. A few will fall off the radar. Hopefully Hansen isn't one.

The great Theo Epstein once drafted a college reliever with the 26th pick in the draft.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 02:08 PM) Yes Dick, we know that's what most teams do. All that is going on here at a White Sox fan message board is White Sox fans simply having a debate as to why Jake Burdi was the best player on the team's board at #26. Maybe history will prove out that he was, and maybe it won't. But given that Burdi is a reliever, questioning his pick in the first round is certainly reasonable. Questioning it just because he is a reliever is a reach. And you don't even seem to know who you are arguing about.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 01:47 PM) Well I am happy that I'm not a Cubs fan or Indians fan or Red Sox fan. You are spot on about that! But getting back to the original point, again, I think I'd rather be drafting the Noah Syndergaards of the world or a five-tool position player in the first round over Jake Burdi types. Well they did draft Alec Hansen. Maybe he's one of those. The fact remains, if any of these guys are successful, it was a good draft pick. There is a lot of failure from even teams with no Jerry Reinsdorf influence at that stage of the draft. The White Sox are just picking the best player on their board. It's what most teams do.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 01:30 PM) Didn't devalue him. Wanted to trade him when his value was at a premium. Still do. Buy low, sell high works a lot better than the Williams/Hahn buy high, sell low approach. Seems his value is a little higher now. You said he wasn't as good as his numbers. Turns out he was better. Sort of the definition of devalue. But hey, you might have received a couple of prospects who could be good some day and you could have always blamed Robin or someone else on the Sox coaching staff for not getting more out of Eaton and increasing his trade value.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 12:55 PM) Then work him as a starter. If he has starter skills, then Williams and Hahn are devaluing him in the pen. Not that devaluation of their own players is anything new out of these 2.... Aren't you the guy who devalued Adam Eaton last year?

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 17, 2016 -> 12:46 PM) The highest-paid starting pitchers, by average annual value: 1. Zack Greinke, $34,416,666 (2016-21) 2. David Price, $31,000,000 (2016-22) 3. Clayton Kershaw, $30,714,286 (2014-20) 4. Max Scherzer, $30,000,000 (2015-21) 5. Jon Lester, $25,833,333 (2015-20) 6. Justin Verlander, $25,714,286 (2013-19) 7. Felix Hernandez, $25,000,000 (2013-19) … Stephen Strasburg, $25,000,000 (2017-23) 9. Zack Greinke, $24,500,000 (2013-18) 10. CC Sabathia, $24,400,000 (2012-16) Relief pitchers The highest-paid relief pitchers, by average annual value: 1. Mariano Rivera, $15,000,000 (2008-10) (2011-12) 2. Rafael Soriano, $14,000,000 (2013-14) 3. Brad Lidge, $12,500,000 (2009-11) … Jonathan Papelbon, $12,500,000 (2012-15) 5. Francisco Rodriguez, $12,333,333 (2009-11) 6. Jonathan Papelbon, $12,000,000 (2011) 7. Joe Nathan, $11,750,000 (2008-11) 8. Rafael Soriano, $11,666,667 (2011-13) 9. Francisco Cordero, $11,500,000 (2008-11) . . . David Robertson, $11,500,000 (2015-18) ouch You want to even it up or even flip it? Figure out what they get paid per inning.